STEM tracking solution

KijutsuKijutsu Posts: 85
edited September 2013 in Motion Controllers
So the Kickstarter will start soon. We've heard Jan talk about the new tracking system for the Omni but he's been silence for a while. Could someone close to Jan (or Jan!) confirm that the Omni will or will not use the STEM before Sixense's kickstarter? I can see someone getting on the kickstarter and buying the full set of 5 STEM packs and then getting told that the Omni will come with two more, that potential customer would not be a happy camper!

BTW Am I the only one that's disappointed that Sixense's Kickstarter is a DK? I want my money to go toward a finished product(like the Omni!) so I'm afraid I won't back it :(

Comments

  • Honestly if the Omni came with two more then i would be a happy camper. because that just means more to play with. maybe adding the two that wouldn't be used to a sword model or something for more realistic tracking and length. Or something like a gun or something. (i like swords better. XD)

    As for it being a DK i would not be to upset. i am so far behind on the oculus rift that i might just wait for the consumer version, but now that i will actually have some cash then i am planning on backing the kick-starter so i get some to play with. I have no idea how to develop for games but i bet i could learn and what better reason then to be able to learn something like this?
    Either way i am just glad that all this is happening. I will finally lose this gut i got. XD ( you know because i have 2.44% motivation to do anything and that is unhealthy)
    “Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to endure a difficult one”

    ― Bruce Lee
  • KijutsuKijutsu Posts: 85
    Having 7 STEM packs won't do you no good, 5 is the maximum.

    After spending 500$ on the Omni, planning to spend 400$ on the Oculus(shipping), and having to update my Video Card (my Radeon 7770 just won't cut it) I can't see myself throwing out money for a DK, unfortunately I think I'm not alone and that means less money for Sixense(I love Sixense so far, mucho respect!)
  • Oh man i forgot about the limit of 5. Well i guess they could just be kept for backups in case one breaks. But i agree. Much respect!
    “Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to endure a difficult one”

    ― Bruce Lee
  • adminadmin Posts: 164
    Hi all,

    We are big fans of the STEM and will support the Sixense Kickstarter, but I want to confirm that the Omni will NOT come with any STEM trackers. We are making great progress on our own tracking solution, which will provide similar functionality for tracking of the feet (with positional tracking) as the STEM would. More so, the STEM and Omni will be fully compatible.

    Best regards,
    Jan
  • KijutsuKijutsu Posts: 85
    You're the man Jan, big thanks!
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,040
    Good question Kijutsu, and thanks for answering that one Jan. I'm assuming by compatible you mean it wont interfere with the STEM's tracking. Now I'm curious as to how the extra 2-3 STEMS will be used. Until the Rift gets its own positional tracking, one will be mounted to the HMD. You have one in each controller, the other two could be attached to elbow pads or knee pads to help with kinematics.

    I'm not disappointed it's a DK. It's too early for anything to be marketed at consumers, so why not keep it open to improvements? I'm aware that I may have to buy twice, but if it means a better product is available when VR makes its bid for global acceptance then I'm willing to make the sacrifice.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • RaoulRaoul Posts: 125
    Thanks for clearing that up Jan. If the Omni will have positional tracking of your feet. Can we assume detecting jumping and walking direction will not require the Kinect?
  • Awesome Jan thanks for clearing that one up!
    “Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to endure a difficult one”

    ― Bruce Lee
  • tpapas1tpapas1 Posts: 10
    Anyone knows if the consumer version of STEM will have any advantages over the kickstarter version?
  • RaoulRaoul Posts: 125
    Although Sixense has not definitively said anything about dev kit vs a consumer model. It would be very surprising to me if the consumer model has any major improvements over the dev kit.

    The point of a dev kit is to allow developers to implement the core functionality of the product. Which in this case is simply the positional tracking. At most I believe the consumer model might be smaller, prettier or more robust. But I don't believe it will have any added features such as lower latency or supporting more than 5 trackers.
  • ChairmanChairman Posts: 12
    sutekiB wrote:
    Good question Kijutsu, and thanks for answering that one Jan. I'm assuming by compatible you mean it wont interfere with the STEM's tracking. Now I'm curious as to how the extra 2-3 STEMS will be used. Until the Rift gets its own positional tracking, one will be mounted to the HMD. You have one in each controller, the other two could be attached to elbow pads or knee pads to help with kinematics.

    I'm not disappointed it's a DK. It's too early for anything to be marketed at consumers, so why not keep it open to improvements? I'm aware that I may have to buy twice, but if it means a better product is available when VR makes its bid for global acceptance then I'm willing to make the sacrifice.

    Hey Suteki,
    I thoguht about these among others. Since Dead tracking will be provided by OR and walking speed +direction by VO there was only way that appeared to me.

    5 trackers in total:
    2 trackers for hand position either with STEM or attached to glove that can tell how bent your fingers are (better than STEM controller).
    1 tracker on chest or back to tell body position and angles if evading something, leaning, jumping, crouching, etc.
    2 trackers used near elbow or knee to tell real position of it. Maybe even knee will be detected by Jans system so you could use it for elbow.

    This would cover your entire body which (including elbows and knees) might prove important in some games from time to time. You wouldn´t like software to guess where your elbow is in MMO swordfight or shooting game and end up with amputed virtual hand to play.
    minichart.png
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,040
    Hi Chairman,
    Yes I agree that's how I see it being used. As you say one hand with a VR glove that has a STEM tracker, so you can for instance pick up a gold coin that's mixed up with some pebbles, and a STEM/Reactive Grip controller in the other hand for haptic feedback and the use of the trigger+analogue stick+buttons for convenience.
    I think it's easier to predict knee position relative to foot than elbow relative to hand. Your arm has greater freedom of movement than your leg. I would say 2 trackers one near each elbow would be very useful for combat as you point out. I think you're right, having the other one on the upper body would be good for twisting/bending to avoid a projectile or sword attack.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • ChairmanChairman Posts: 12
    Yes, for now the final solution mostly depends on how OR will manage absolute position tracking and what kind of system will VO usein the end.
    One more thing I forgot to add. If you would have gloves that are able to tell the finger position/bending it would be great if they had tracking similiar to the one OR has now. This way you would need only to know elbow because you know where STEM is on your elbow and from that + combined with glove you would be able to simply configure it in some premade simple UI (distance from STEM to glove, etc.).
    Now you would have full hand tracking with just 2 STEM units making the other 2 spare.
    minichart.png
  • RaoulRaoul Posts: 125
    Well the STEM system just went live on Kickstarter. Prices are a little higher than I expected, so I opted to go for a three tracker bundle instead of five.

    Curious that they list haptic feedback as a feature on both the controllers and the STEM packs. I'm guessing this is just gonna be rumble, but let's hope they struck some deal with Tactical Haptics the makers of the reactive grip. ;)
  • It is good to hear that Jan has confirmed STEM Sixense is not going to be integrated.

    With all due respect to STEM, their products are useless and nonsense to us. Because I feel we can just buy a pair of WiiMotes and use Johnny Lee's open-source PC controller for PC. Buy two used Wiimotes on Amazon that costs you only $10 per each here. How about Sixense? IMO that won't be open source and will be way expensive.

    Instead, the only thing that impressed me was PrioVR on Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/yei ... g?ref=live

    If compare to PrioVR, Sixense is an outdated cheap copy of Wiimote but with high selling price.
  • RaoulRaoul Posts: 125
    According to their kickstarter page:

    "Our first effort looks and feels great and will support accessories like swords and shields. As we finalize the internals and receive feedback from our backers we may need to make changes to ensure that the design allows for the best possible user experience. Aesthetics and ergonomics aside, the STEM System we’ll ship to our Kickstarter backers will function identically to the retail version."
  • blazespinnakerblazespinnaker Posts: 233
    edited September 2013
    It is good to hear that Jan has confirmed STEM Sixense is not going to be integrated.

    With all due respect to STEM, their products are useless and nonsense to us. Because I feel we can just buy a pair of WiiMotes and use Johnny Lee's open-source PC controller for PC. Buy two used Wiimotes on Amazon that costs you only $10 per each here. How about Sixense? IMO that won't be open source and will be way expensive.

    Instead, the only thing that impressed me was PrioVR on Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/yei ... g?ref=live

    If compare to PrioVR, Sixense is an outdated cheap copy of Wiimote but with high selling price.

    With all due respect, a wiimote is useless for the Omni, because the second you turn around / occlude, they don't work. Moving, twisting your hands, crouching, jumping, kicking with your feet .. all those great things, do not work.

    Sixense is the the best because of all the occlusion issues from the base + support + turning around. These guys are at the forefront of all of that is consumer VR mocap and they know better than anyone about what to do here. The $300 is also extremely cheap.

    Theoretically, two kinect 2 cameras might work (no attaching things to your body, too), but that's very theoretical as two cameras are not supported by MSFT and the latency is likely to be bad. There might be occlusion issues as well.

    If you know anything about my posts, I'm not one to blow smoke, and I'm not a fanboy, but I can personally tell you (as I've implemented this myself) what they're trying to do is exactly what needs to be done. Whether they can actually do everything they promise, is up for question. Also, I have my doubts that a lot of games will integrate their device.

    But - what they are trying to do and the price point they're doing it at is revolutionary. The only downside I can see about what they have is all those attachment points. Putting them on everytime you want to play might get annoying.
  • RaoulRaoul Posts: 125
    PrioVR is certainly impressive, but game support for this device is questionable in my opinion. Also how good the tracking will actually be remains to be seen. Considering it uses inertial tracking rather than absolute positional tracking.

    Agree with Blaze that the STEM system seems the best tracking product for use with VR games. Game integration is not something I worry about though. The Razer Hydra has already become the default motion tracking device for VR demos. And the STEM system is fully backwards compatible with this so people can keep using the Hydra to develop with.

    Older adapted technology like the Kinect or Wiimote will not get you the desired result. At most it's a stop gap to use until products designed for VR are released. Comparing the STEM system to a Wiimote is like comparing the Omni to a Wii balance board. It's not even in the same league.
  • Raoul wrote:
    PrioVR is certainly impressive, but game support for this device is questionable in my opinion. Also how good the tracking will actually be remains to be seen. Considering it uses inertial tracking rather than absolute positional tracking.

    Agree with Blaze that the STEM system seems the best tracking product for use with VR games. Game integration is not something I worry about though. The Razer Hydra has already become the default motion tracking device for VR demos. And the STEM system is fully backwards compatible with this so people can keep using the Hydra to develop with.

    Older adapted technology like the Kinect or Wiimote will not get you the desired result. At most it's a stop gap to use until products designed for VR are released. Comparing the STEM system to a Wiimote is like comparing the Omni to a Wii balance board. It's not even in the same league.

    I've seen some 3rd parties building software for 2 kinects on either side, to deal with 360 capture. Hopefully kinect 2 will be better, latency wise.

    BTW, did you catch what Jan said about the omni? Capacitive sensors in the base... Interesting. No crouching support I guess. I wonder if the sensors will work via the shoes.
  • RaoulRaoul Posts: 125
    @blazespinnaker

    According to the specifications latency on the Kinect 2 will be 60 ms, compared to 90 ms on the old one. Still too much in my opinion.

    Saw that Jan confirmed on kickstarter that the Omni will use capacitive touch. An earlier post on Reddit by someone who attended a presentation said Jan was talking about integrating capacitive touch into the base of the Omni. This would make sense since adding the sensors to the shoes would raise the price above $50 a pair. Especially considering you would need to integrate a wireless transmitter and battery into the shoe.

    Still have my doubts about the durability of using these type of sensors. Detecting crouching, leaning and possibly walking direction will probably require a product like the STEM.
  • In fact, one Kinect is able to work if an application is created from KinectFusion...you just need a 360 degree scan (just once) for your body, and the data for your body is recorded into the database for other games used in the future. And then setting up a Kinect above your head is good enough to detect any movements of you. But you can't change the cloth that is too different from the first time you have scanned. However this takes time to be developed.

    I would rather choose PrioVR because I would be fine to wear a few sensors...I still have to wear a lot of gadgets such as Omni shoes, Omni pants, and Oculus Rift, 5.1 Earphone, etc... The company has officially told me that he orientation accuracy for each of their old sensors is within +/- 1 degree for all orientations in both static and dynamic conditions. This sounds OK, and they provide additional sensors for professional quality motion capture at this point, but I need to confirm with them if this improves anything.

    Using Wiimote was just an example...it is not compulsory. The point is that STEM is still bringing us joysticks that is pointless when we all are working on VR and motion controllers. PrioVR is not the only solution, and there are many other solutions such as MYO+Kinect (combination), 2 Kinects (combination), Kinect2.0, etc.
  • RaoulRaoul Posts: 125
    Even if you get a single Kinect to work, you are still dealing with a latency of 60 ms. Barring any major technical improvements to bring this down, it's simply too much for a good VR experience in my opinion.

    PrioVr technically seems like the best product. If they deliver on their promise of accuracy and low latency, without any drift. As well as easy integration into Unity, UDK and CryEngine they may even have a shot a wide software (game) support.

    But that remains a lot to live up to. So I would rather wait and see what they can actually produce and how widely it is adopted before buying any of their products.

    But I do agree with you that the focus on joysticks by Sixense is a rather annoying. Have actually upped my pledge to the five tracker bundle. Simply because I want to be able to use three STEM packs without the joysticks and use other peripherals such as the MYO and the Delta Six.

    Would like to have seen a three tracker bundle with just STEM packs and no joysticks. Especially since a lot of people are looking to get the Reactive Grip from Tactical Haptics as well.
  • In fact, one Kinect is able to work if an application is created from KinectFusion...you just need a 360 degree scan (just once) for your body, and the data for your body is recorded into the database for other games used in the future. And then setting up a Kinect above your head is good enough to detect any movements of you. But you can't change the cloth that is too different from the first time you have scanned. However this takes time to be developed.

    Interesting configuration - I missed that. However, the latency issues are problematic. I still think you'd probably suffer from occlusion at times though MSFT is doing really amazing things with Kinect 2, so who knows.
    I would rather choose PrioVR because I would be fine to wear a few sensors...I still have to wear a lot of gadgets such as Omni shoes, Omni pants, and Oculus Rift, 5.1 Earphone, etc... The company has officially told me that he orientation accuracy for each of their old sensors is within +/- 1 degree for all orientations in both static and dynamic conditions. This sounds OK, and they provide additional sensors for professional quality motion capture at this point, but I need to confirm with them if this improves anything.

    Using Wiimote was just an example...it is not compulsory. The point is that STEM is still bringing us joysticks that is pointless when we all are working on VR and motion controllers. PrioVR is not the only solution, and there are many other solutions such as MYO+Kinect (combination), 2 Kinects (combination), Kinect2.0, etc.

    The PrioVR is interesting, but I think it's being developed by mo-cap geeks for mo-cap geeks and not for average gamers. So, if you're into serious mo-cap probably the way to go, but if you're just into "just works" gaming, I'd go with wither Sixense or Kinect. And again, with Kinect, I'd worry about latency.

    Anyways, hopefully PrioVR makes their nut .. the more choices the better. I admit to being rather biased towards Sixense though.. they really are trying to create Oasis, which is something I want to see.
  • @both of you:
    Agree. As a a hardcore VR fan, I have pre-ordered or/and bought the VR/Motion-controllers in the market. And I will see what solution or combination will be the best to get things working perfectly. lol.:lol:
  • How about latest info?
    How many parts will be tracked with Omni?
    Only the feets? the waist too? Hands?

    In other words: Is there still a need of buying the STEM-System or can Omni track everything?
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,040
    Hi @LloydCorfex, the Omni only tracks your feet.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
Sign In or Register to comment.