North America & European game development may not have gammers to buy yours until 2018-2019 or more

Now that many of your Omnis are being sent to China instead of you (the game developer or potential gamer/customer) there wont be as many Omni's around for a long time with this new delay which means there maybe less customers to buy your game. Should studios feel confident that they will have a market to sell to? I now have to reconsider this myself.

I don't know if Jan/Virtuix thought this through but now the Omni might be seen as a risky purchase for both game developers and gamers in North America/Europe etc if there wont be people that have them for a very, very long time.
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Comments

  • xxann5xxann5 Posts: 593
    Where are you getting 2018/2019 from?

  • AscensiAscensi Posts: 116
    Considering by the time developers in Canada and the USA get their units in 2017 maybe late 2017 because a major portion is being shipped to China instead, it can likely take a year or more for Native games to be made. I had a reply from Virtuix for Canadian shipments to be sent to us early "Quarter" of 2017 over a week and a half ago but now the latest Virtuix update may have changed that. I think it would be better to keep existing customers interested even though games may not be fully developed.. keeps them in the loop and can give them positive outlook during their experience and game creation feedback which is important. If developers in the West went ahead and developed games without feedback the end product could generate more negative reviews/unsatisfactory expectations. I see a lot of AAA studios carefully listening to their customers.. but this situation doesn't seem like it's going to work in anyone's favor for this new direction except maybe for Virtuix for a little while.. but then I can imagine Virtuix being bought by China afterwards if popularity dies for it in the West as it sounds like Virtuix is struggling as it is now other wise they wouldn't need to do to everyone what they say they are going to do.
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,010
    @Ascensi I've actually heard that developers are excited that Virtuix is willing to support arcades, as there is potentially more revenue for developers there than the consumer market for now. They will be in the west too, as was announced a while back. The more arcades there are, the more Omni users there are and the more exposure that content gets - so I would hope that the popularity of the system will continue to increase.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • AscensiAscensi Posts: 116
    edited December 2016
    Not if they don't get their treadmill until a year or more later. I could understand/accept late 2015-to 2016 orders being diverted to China because they are recent and haven't waited in line as long like the early backers and pre-orders but this is not the case since Virtuix wants to start receiving income from license fees - so I believe they would do this to the first backers and pre orders right away.
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,010
    I think this is very difficult to calculate. Even without some stock going to arcades (and I don't know how many that is) - delivery to backers would still be slow due to the rigorous inspection that's underway. However, once quality control at the factory level reaches the point where inspections are no longer needed in Austin, the rate of fulfilment is sure to increase. Exactly when that happens is hard to say. I won't make predictions, but I can tell you that Jan knows that people want to see numbers of units going out, so hopefully you'll get more clarity on that soon, as I understand why that's important for your business planning.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • @Ascensi - could you please explain what in the most recent blog post conflicts with anything that has been announced back in August?
    Virtuix said:

    Virtuix Blog Aug 1st
    September: 258 units (5 containers)
    October: 810 units (15 containers)
    November (estimate): 1,500 units
    December (estimate): 2,000 units

    as a note, these dates are when the Omni units ship FROM China, and take 6 weeks, hence the Sept shipment arrives at Virtuix in Nov. In the latest blog post, they said they already had the first container in their headquarters getting inspected, right before they mentioned that, they said that the "containers"(plural) had arrived, so there are obviously more than one, and no reason to believe that there are less than the 5 containers they specified back in August.
  • I would think we are banking that if their shipping 54 a week until Chinese new year, then that's 464 shipped to the US in total, As said by Virtuix Blog Aug 1st
    September: 258 units (5 containers)
    October: 810 units (15 containers)
    November (estimate): 1,500 units
    December (estimate): 2,000 units
    That's 4,568 estimated shipped just by December,Not counting the 17 days of Jan . Now I may be mistranslating the data But Virtuix never stated that shipments had been on schedule up to that point just that they were shipping 54 a week between now and Chinese new year. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted something. Now most of us have been around for a minute some much longer then myself but no one here is surprised by the delay of shipments just disappointed that the company seems to be back tracking on a previous promise,and comes across as a bit unconcerned if we're bothered by it. Suggesting kindly that we can have our money back if we don't like it . To me it feels almost like an insult speaking trufully not inflammatory.
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 307
    edited December 2016
    @Nossforra2 - you are misinterpreting, because (as I have reminded people repeatedly) that schedule is for units being shipped FROM China, NOT TO THE KICKSTARTERS. None of those numbers has any connection to how fast they ship units to the kickstarters, that is ONLY how fast Virtuix is getting them FROM CHINA. I made the same mistake myself when I first saw those figures, but this is a clear case where people are taking the data that Virtuix is putting out and deciding to interpret that data to fit their own interests.
  • If they are shipping them by the crate then I would assume and it is my assumption,that that means ocean bound. Because anything to thier Chinese capital partners would be trucked not crated. Now they did not state they were inspecting 54 a week but shipping 54 a week from the factory. "We plan to produce and ship one container per week to Austin between now and Chinese New Year in January. This pace will increase after Chinese New Year," now if it said shipping one container from Austin, then I would concede the point apologize for the trouble and move on. But the way it reads is one container a week of 54 units to Austin or where ever but once again I'm forced to assume to Austin as they said all units would come thru Austin.Can you please link to the information contradicting that these one container a week is not in reference to what's being sent to Austin but another situation?
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 307
    edited December 2016
    moving packages by truck is still referred to as shipping. Hence what they are talking about is moving the containers FROM the shipment that has arrived in the USA TO their facility in Austin. I doubt they have enough room to justify storing every single container on site.
    There is no reason to link you to any information about Virtuix handling more than 54 units per week because they've never said they are handling more than 54 units per week. I'm not sure if you're a non-native english speaker and this is some sort of google translate issue, but as I've been CONSTANTLY REPEATING; the shipment numbers quoted in August are NOT numbers that have anything to do with delivery time to customers, they are only delivery FROM CHINA.
  • Ok I'm from Tennessee so you may consider me a non english speaker lol, But moving cargo by truck is called transporting, shipping is usually referred to as ocean freight. Once again I understand the theory your talking about that they as in virtuix are transporting one Container of product from the port of delivery to the Austin office, as they clearly state Produce in thier statement "We plan to produce and ship one container per week to Austin between now and Chinese New Year in January. This pace will increase after Chinese New Year," that is implying they are manufacturing and then shipping as that is what "producing" means we are making and shipping to Austin. For the record" Shipping=the transport of goods by sea or some other means." "Transport=.take or carry (people or goods) from one place to another by means of a vehicle, aircraft, or ship.". Therefore one is to assume they are producing and shipping one container a week of 54 units and sending it to the Austin office. Before you state that it's a misinterpretation there is a P.R person that gets paid to make these statements and check and recheck them for legal reasons as by pre-ordering a product they are legally bound to deliver and subject to class action lawsuit for failing to do so .Not to Kickstarters as you knew the risk ,but to pre orders who purchased a product not a dream. Now before we all get excited I'm not threatening it, just saying that's why the legalize is so important.
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 307
    edited December 2016
    I will look back through every single email notification I have every had for any item I have ever ordered and had mailed to me:
    "Shipping order #etc"
    "Your package has shipped"
    "your shipment has arrived"
    "your order will ship within 3 business days"
    Shipping=moving some sort of item by some sort of vehicle, not specific to ships only.

    pre-orders are not bound to a class action lawsuit, and if legalese was that important to you, you'd know that. The only thing a pre-order guarantees is that either the company must show their intention to deliver a product, or they must provide a refund if it can be shown that they will be indefinitely incapable of delivering that product. Even that is a pretty generous interpretation.
  • AscensiAscensi Posts: 116
    edited December 2016
    @GreyAcumen I agree with Nossforra2 about banking on the 54 a week. Virtuix isn't ramping anything up due to the continuing deep inspection process and I understand that they are shipping country by country starting with the USA and not specifically by order of purchase so if someone is for example the 54th backer but lives in Canada well that person will have to wait until they're ready to ship to Canada. Now however since Virttuix wants income from China based licenced Operators they will send fresh units to them instead to start getting more income effectively delaying each country. -this is my argument
  • For the record I was not attempting to be a instigator the definitions I offered were straight from Webster. Grey with all due respect I feel it's obvious what they are discussing in thier Blog and trufully I'm getting off point with my point. I as many others feel that our orders should come first as they were placed first. I think we as individuals are at a point where we both understand the position the other is coming from we just disagree. Ain't much we can do about that.So for the sake of not being toxic and hurting these forums I'm gonna let it go for now.........But come on Grey you got to admit that Tennessee comment was funny.
  • giroudfgiroudf Posts: 127
    you can turn this the way you want, the fact is virtuix is not able to deliver at the pace they even state themselves is the only reality we can see.
    the reason (checking the good in Austin) seesm a bit silly, since quality check would be probably a lot easier at factory (before packing).
    It seems even more sillier, since the product is mainly molded plastic and metal, from an industrial process (as we hope for it would for a product released at this scale, more than 10.000) , so once the first items are proven good, there are few chances the next ones would sensibly differ in quality.
    But the proof is in the pudding and let's see what will happens after Chinese new year.
    Anyway, even an optimistic expectation show that we will not get the omni before mid 2017 for the lucky ones (kickstarters) and end of 2017 for the first pre-order.
    I really do not understand why virtuix is not simply put the number on the table, instead sliping subliminal info into their updates (54 items a month until February, do you math and if the result does not please you, ask for a refund)
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 307
    edited December 2016
    @Ascensi @Nossfarra2 @giroudf - All of you are missing the point I've been making from the very beginning:
    1) August's blog listed shipment numbers for Sept- 258, Oct- 810, Nov- 1500(est), Dec- 2000(est) [THIS IS CORRECT AND ACCURATE]
    2) Decembers blog listed the inspection and "ship to consumer" rate at 54 per week [THIS IS CORRECT AND ACCURATE]
    3) Neither of these 2 facts conflict with each other because the numbers in point 1 have NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH SHIPMENTS TO CONSUMERS

    So where is this constant thing that Virtuix can't deliver at the pace they state coming from?
    Yes I get that before the design on the Omni was finalized, they had been saying they'd ship out in just a few months and missing that all the time, but that is because they've been constantly resetting the Omni itself. Yeah, Omni v0.1 would have shipped back in January, but that's not a version that works as well as it should, sure Omni v0.5 would have shipped in June, but again, not the one they stuck with, Omni v1.0 might have gotten to consumers back in September, but they needed to tweak a few more things and so Omni v1.1 is the design they approved for final production.
    All of the issues plaguing the past several years no longer apply to the current situation.
    All the numbers that Virtuix has listed out since finalizing their design has not shown any signs of being inaccurate, beyond people inaccurately interpreting what those numbers actually mean.

    Also, why would anyone be stupid enough to ask for a refund? If you've waited 3+ years for your unit, why would you drop out now when it's months or a year away? The most you'll get for your refund is the amount you paid, but the price has only gone up since then, so a refund would only work in Virtuix's favor. You'd do better to hold out, and resell it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would pay a premium on top of the recent price increase to be able to jump ahead in line.
    Ascensi said:

    @GreyAcumen I agree with Nossforra2 about banking on the 54 a week. Virtuix isn't ramping anything up due to the continuing deep inspection process and I understand that they are shipping country by country starting with the USA and not specifically by order of purchase so if someone is for example the 54th backer but lives in Canada well that person will have to wait until they're ready to ship to Canada. Now however since Virttuix wants income from China based licenced Operators they will send fresh units to them instead to start getting more income effectively delaying each country. -this is my argument

    See, the mistake you're making is twofold;
    A.) Canada is possibly the worst example you could have used, because that's pretty much certain to be able to be handled by basic freight shipping from Austin. I highly doubt that any Canadian members have any risk of being pushed back behind USA. Also, a quick youtube scrounge will show that several of the Pathfinders are located in Europe, but Virtuix was still able to ship out to them. There are some places, like Australia (probably africa, and some other asian regions) that Virtuix hasn't finished negotiating shipping options, but for the few people who are in those regions it is unlikely that Virtuix wont be able to work out specific solutions for those individuals.
    B.) Virtuix is NOT shipping to China. Why the hell would they ship stuff to USA just to ship it BACK to China. China is shipping to itself. It's pretty much guaranteed that China's safety standards are not as rigorous as in the US, and so whatever inspection is done in China is perfectly adequate for Omni units being acceptable for sale in China. We still have no idea what the circumstances are for the Chinese factory to be producing those Omni units, so the idea that China is somehow slowing down shipment is completely erroneous. It's already obvious that more units are being shipped to Virtuix from China than what Virtuix is capable of inspecting, so whatever China is currently getting are doubtless excess units anyway.
    China is NOT stealing your place in line. Get over it.
  • @GreyAcumen Grey are you an offical moderator on this site or just a pathfinder, because if you in anyway officially represent this company then your demeanor and the way in which you talk to the members of this forum sometimes crosses a line of professional. If your just a poster who happens to be a pathfinder then more power too you talk down to us all you want. It seems a situation in which only you are able to see the logistics involved in all of this information that the rest of us obviously can't comprehend. Perhaps your right sir and they provide us with just enough to confuse ourselves. Because why even inform your customers that you are shipping a specific number of product ,Estimate or not if your intentions were not to ship them upon arrival. I guess it feels like your theory is that they had intentions to ship 4000 plus product and then sit on them. Which makes no logistical sense as I belive beyond a very limited time frame it cost money to store shipping containers at Port, unless they rented an area to store them but that's never been mentioned either. And to clear this up for us as you may have an understanding about the situation we lack,Is there a second production plant producing product for the Chinese capitol investors?
  • giroudfgiroudf Posts: 127
    edited December 2016
    yes, if we admit the number you mention "Sept- 258, Oct- 810, Nov- 1500(est), Dec- 2000(est) [THIS IS CORRECT AND ACCURATE]" , for a total of 4568 (easily covering the kickstarter), the next question is : where are they ?
    I think if over 4000 omni where floating around, they would be visible a way or another (even if sold to the CIA)

    the question is not how much, where and when, the question is if somebody tells you something and obviously your observation tells you something else ...???.
    so again , all we be clear after Feb 2017

    about "why would anyone be stupid enough to ask for a refund? ", we have seen that for the oculus and the vive. while kickstarters awaited years to get theirs, it is now available within only a few days (or even immediately at the next supermarket).
    You can expect the same for the omni. If Virtuix is able to cover the 10.000 orders in a honest period (let's say a few months), you can expect that if you receive yours in September, somebody ordering in September would probably receive his in October. you waited 3 years, he waited 1 month. (and probably the Chinese guys are using them since May)

  • AscensiAscensi Posts: 116
    edited December 2016
    @sutekiB could you clarify/confirm what is happening -about China based licensed operators being bumped up the list to get their Omnis quicker than people on the list years before them because we have some members here like @GreyAcumen whom seems to think there isn't any delay for backers & pre-orders maybe other than the rigorous inspection.

    Many of us here get that the China Based licensed operators will be shipped their units at the same time of the backlog from this statement on the blog "We also deliver production units directly to our joint-venture partner in China for the Chinese commercial entertainment market. Commercial operators pay us additional licensing fees, which help us stay funded while we deliver our backlog." so the part that states "while we deliver our backlog" would mean that there would have to be a delay for someone since there is only one factory but even if there was more than one- the units would be allocated to China from the most recent ones made so Virtuix stays funded. I would be ok if Virtuix just recently were able to get the China units produced another factory as to not interrupt existing wait times other than the rigorous inspection.
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 307
    edited December 2016
    @Nossforra2 - all I'm doing is reading the blogs and interpreting information for what it means. It just bugs the hell out of me to see people winding themselves up over an issue that is entirely speculative and the information they use to support their claims is obviously inaccurate.
    There are 2 major issues people keep banging on:
    1) That Virtuix lied about how fast they would be moving Omnis
    2) That China getting Omni Units now is making Kickstarters and Preorders get their units slower.

    For point 1, what @giroudf says is exactly the case; "if over 4000 Omni units are FLOATING around..." All of those numbers listing September through December shipping were stated as shipping, by sea, from China, so those 4000 Omni units are LITERALLY floating around right now on their way to the USA. The 54 units Virtuix is sending per week has to do with how fast they can move those incoming shipments, Quality Inspect them, and organize sending them out to the end user. But those initial numbers never made any promises that Virtuix would be beaming them to consumers as soon as the Ships carrying the units docked.

    and for Point 2 @Ascensi actually touches on half of the exact issue I've been trying to raise; Regardless of how fast the factory ships out units to Virtuix, the Austin branch itself currently looks to be the bottleneck in the theoretical maximum shipping speed, since they only have so many US members to handle inspects and the final shipping. If the factory keeps shipping units to Virtuix full force, then the ships withthe containers would block the US docks. It would be ridiculous to try to tell the factory "no, just close down the factory and have everyone stay home for a month or two while we work through the backlog here" so instead, they might as well be producing units for China, where they don't even have to be shipped at all.
    The other half of my point is that the deal with the Chinese company may have also provided connections and local knowledge (business/legal) that helped them find a location, reliable workers, and/or get the full factory built much faster than Virtuix would have been able to do on their own. Which would mean that even if this means units are going to China, the end result could still be that sending units to China IS actually getting them HERE faster.

    Obviously all of that COULD be wrong, Virtuix COULD be lying and COULD have just a bunch of empty boxes that they've taken pictures of, but to what end? None of the info they've giving us actually conflicts with any other info they've given since August.(information they've given before that can be removed from the equation because Virtuix had not finalized their production yet)
    giroudf said:

    about "why would anyone be stupid enough to ask for a refund? ", we have seen that for the oculus and the vive. while kickstarters awaited years to get theirs, it is now available within only a few days (or even immediately at the next supermarket).
    You can expect the same for the omni. If Virtuix is able to cover the 10.000 orders in a honest period (let's say a few months), you can expect that if you receive yours in September, somebody ordering in September would probably receive his in October. you waited 3 years, he waited 1 month.

    If the backlog of pre-orders is still up in the 20k range, then I wouldn't count on the full backlog being cleared that fast. For one thing, HMDs can both be sent through basic post, which only requires you send out the units. Freight shipping and delivery needed for the Omni requires a lot more logistical communication and scheduling on both ends. Someone who has waited 3 years for their unit would have spent around $500-$600 and would likely get theirs within the next year. either way, Omnis are $1000 now, and pre-ordering now could take more than a year for it to arrive. Just look at the Nintendo Wii and PS3, even the NES CE; people pay a premium just so they have the guarantee of getting it now instead of waiting for it, even though they wont be waiting as long as the initial kickstarters. This is even more the case with all the companies trying to get an early jump on this type of thing; it wont matter if it's 1 year or 1 week, getting the unit earlier could be worth, to them, paying higher than the $1000 that Virtuix is charging.

  • @GreyAcumen Thank you for that clear and level explanation I now have a better understanding of the points your trying to get across and will admit to even agreeing with your view on the delivery of units to China.If they can only move so many from Austin then why not distribute the overflow to china.Fair enough. But that's why the last step seems so artifical the final inspection in Austin. It's more cost effective to do a QA test at the end of an assembly line then to repackage a product. I worked a QA job and can tell you most if not all company's do a QA Sample as in a QA sample rate of one in 10 they pick one product out of 10 produced and check it. But in the sake of peace I'll assume thier just extra paranoid and that the Chinese their shipping to are not as concerned with getting product that is unreliable as they aren't receiving Jan's personal approval on each unit. But I'll not deny I feel it's an artifical step set in place as to not break a promise of jumping their New partners into the rotation. And to provide a logical explanation on why it's ok.
  • edmgedmg Posts: 57
    edited December 2016
    According to the Virtuix posts, it looks like they are doing QA at the end of the production line, they just don't trust it enough yet to ship direct to customers. If someone has waited three years for their Omni, do you really think they want to get one that's defective and has to be shipped back?

    Once they know the kind of things that are getting past the current factory QA--if anything actually is--they can ensure those things are checked before the Omni is shipped to the customer.
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 307
    edited December 2016
    Even if they didn't have the inspection process to deal with, Virtuix still might be limited in terms of how fast they can turn around the product to consumers. A lot of their need for high volume movement is only due to having such a huge backlog, basically trying to move 3 years worth of orders all at once. If they hired enough people to churn through all those orders in, lets say, the next year, then once they clear it, all those people just get laid off all at once? As a business, it's important for Virtuix to balance between the volume they need to deal with now as well as the volume they will be dealing with in the future.
    More than likely, Virtuix has been tracking just how fast all the various orders have come in, and will be setting themselves a goal that they can do about 150%-200% (or higher, I dunno) of the current order rate to allow themselves to catch up without overtaking completely, then once they do manage to catch up on orders, they reorganize, and use profits and extra people towards designing an updated Omni model that supports more options and a better range of motion.

    @Nossforra2 - Thank you. I had actually been getting pretty stressed trying to figure out where my attempts to convey those points had been failing.

    I worked a QA job and can tell you most if not all company's do a QA Sample as in a QA sample rate of one in 10 they pick one product out of 10 produced and check it. But in the sake of peace I'll assume thier just extra paranoid and that the Chinese their shipping to are not as concerned with getting product that is unreliable as they aren't receiving Jan's personal approval on each unit.

    Just to check, was your QA experience with a completely brand new product, and specifically a new product upon which the success of the business almost entirely hinged on, and also a new product that could cause serious harm and trend all over major twitter/facebook feeds if even a single one failed?
    If a pasta strainer fails, then it's not a big deal, just send a new one and people will be annoyed, but not enough to condemn a company throughout facebook. If Nintendo has a whole bunch of the NES CEs go bad, people will be okay with getting a replacement because no one got hurt, and the Samsung Note 7 battery incident was a huge blow to Samsung, but they'll be able to absorb it because they have many other products that will still sell just fine, and they have an established history of quality so this is viewed as a fluke. The Omni is Virtuix's flagship product, and around 99% of the sales they make are either it, or accessories for it, so if it fails (and if it did, it would likely be a harm-causing failure) it will not only reflect badly on Virtuix, but any drop in sales of the Omni will also drop sales of everything else Virtuix sells at the same time.
    Virtuix probably will scale down to only checking 1 in 10ish once they have delivered on their promise to kickstarters, and once they are better established as a company, but for now, they need to QA like their future depends on it, because it does.

  • xxann5xxann5 Posts: 593
    I have to agree with @GreyAcumen on this. Virtuix has been on point with what they have been saying. these bast few months. I am not sure why all the hostility all of a sudden.
  • giroudfgiroudf Posts: 127
    edited December 2016
    there is no hostility, but again, it seems virtuix is playing a double game, one with the kickstarters and another one with the $$$ partners.
    (many kickstarter projects suffered form that, including oculus)
    it is fair since the latter are warrants for the business to stay alive, but if you turn the explanation to the pessimistic interpretation, it sounds more like virtuix has no money to build the kickstarter items (or even worse, the pre-order) and rely on the contract with the new comers to conitnue. (implying more delays at best, ponzi scheme at worst)
    That is not uncommon business (i mean being on the edge and woking with tight flow or even selling a product that does not exist yet) , but it can turn very fast to bad news.
    One way to master this situation is to give clear communication, and this thread tends to prove a lack here.
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,010
    One way to master this situation is to give clear communication, and this thread tends to prove a lack here.

    Hi @giroudf, there will be an official update regarding fulfilment of Kickstarter rewards and pre-orders posted here today, to clarify the situation.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • MarkHMarkH Posts: 11
    you can bet that Virtux is going to get their name and their product roasted on each and every tech site after pulling a BS stunt like this...I really hope that Chinese backer has lots of money and doesn't just build their own next year because you can bet that your EU and NA partners will never get on board now because by the time 2018 or 2019 comes around you can bet that the Chinese are going to have at least 1 knockoff product of their own for 1/2 the price
  • adminadmin Posts: 134
    @MarkH - We apologize for the frustration that we have caused you and can certainly understand why our ability to deliver Omnis to commercial customers internationally seems at odds with our refund program. All Omnis outside of the United States will be delivered by distributors. We have formed several such partnerships with companies that distribute to commercial markets such as VR arcades and family entertainment centers where logistics and customer support channels are more established. Unfortunately we have been unable to find a cost effective way of replicating this for the home market.
  • AscensiAscensi Posts: 116
    edited December 2016
    @admin So who specifically do we go to for distribution in Canada?
  • MarkHMarkH Posts: 11
    hey Omni..give me a call...I have an incorporate company (multiple actually). I will become your distributer for you in Canada and I will take care of the importing process....simple and done..you just need to get me stock...
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