International Refund Program

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  • giroudfgiroudf Posts: 127
    edited December 2016
    I am just videoconferencing with a lawyer now. He says it is an interesting case.
    since the Omni is totally produced in China, it would explain the "check" in USA, to give some reason to stamp the product as partially "made in USA" or starting its life
    as an omni from USA .
    many companies do that, they just import the product in separate parts and assemble in any country they choose, to get "nationality" (and taxes reduction).
    Simply put, if the product is totally assembled in china and delivered as working and boxed, there would be few excuses to not deliver internationally since we could consider
    it is already delivered internationally (from china to usa)

    .
  • TomekTomek Posts: 76
    @tppp Me too. NDA and total ineligibility for support if you ship it to me. If not, I'd like to gift it to my gf's sister in the US.
  • Yeah, well i gift it to my inlaws, they like that stuff too. Both needd the exercice anyway. Send me an NDA an ship it to Indiana.
  • tppptppp Posts: 5
    admin said:

    this is necessary for us to survive as a company

    How much you'd need per unit (without support and without warranty) to make it profitable to ship the Kickstarter units? I'm considering paying double the original pledge.

  • xxann5xxann5 Posts: 593
    Damn @giroudf hard core. Didn't they say the check in Texas was only for the first few containers and then they would be shipping directly to the customers without going to the Virtuix offices first?
  • giroudfgiroudf Posts: 127
    edited December 2016
    yes but since the announcement, there would be no further shipment to anywhere else than USA.
    and it is possible that when exploring that path, a bell ringed, and all that **** surfaced.
  • sutekiB said:
    I understand how this news is deeply affecting some on the forum. As a long time backer and supporter of the Omni myself, I've always tried to help spread the word about the Omni, and convince people of its merits. For anyone who was a vocal advocate and had hoped to receive an Omni soon, this must come as an especially bitter blow. Since I became a community manager at Virtuix, I see how important the goodwill of the community is to everyone here. As stated in the update, Virtuix has not given up on the dream of making the Omni available around the world, and everyone's support and enthusiasm is still very much appreciated. One day I believe it will happen, and if it does it will be thanks to those who stuck by the team throughout the ups and downs, and upheld the ideals of natural VR locomotion - even despite their personal disappointment. I realise this is easy for me to say, but I do genuinely think there will be a light at the end of the tunnel, and I'll do whatever I can to help get us there as soon as possible.


    Hi sutekib
    I hear what your sayin and we have all been behind the team from day 1 especially me , that's why I asked Jan to take you on as a forum modulator.
    Remember I worked long and hard on this forum befor I asked Jan to take you on because you was a regular poster and knowledgable member and you have done the team proud, I really hope you get yours, ,I'm just so glad I didn't spend the three years moderating the forum as well as waiting for my omni . If I did I would be even more poised off than I am now
  • TomekTomek Posts: 76
    @xxann5 Yes they did say that. So this is unfair as they could just ship it. Besides, I'm happy to gift it to my future sister in law.
  • giroudfgiroudf Posts: 127
    anyway, whatever is the problem, it is clearly showing that they do not control the situation anymore (just a lot of sorry, NDA ?).
    somebody else must be in control now and we have very few chance to change something since we are not talking to the right person.
    I strongly recommend a refund, because next week news could be there will be no refund...and more sorry
  • They sure are full of it. That's dirty Americans for you. Not too hard to understand what happened, here's the meeting:

    Lackey1(SutekiB?)"The backers and early pre-orders are going to get Omnis from us at a lost, but on the other hand the Chinese are willing to buy a **** load of Omnis from us at a profit"
    Jan"Good thing we put in a terms of sale that allows us to offer a refund any time prior to shipment!"
    SutekiB"Sounds good, I got mine and who cares about faceless customers. I do feel a little bad, let's give them a refund at full retail price"
    Jan"lol good one, let's just shut them up with a 3% rate to make us look good, we'll even compound it!"
    SB"All hail the Chinese."
    Jan"And their money!!"
  • xxann5xxann5 Posts: 593
    I don't know @giroudf I really dont think the illuminati have swooped in to take control of the ODT market. Reality is really that interesting.
  • TomekTomek Posts: 76
    We are still waiting to hear about those who want to gift their Omnis to US family. I see no reason to deny this. Many people want to try one and I may as well have my future in-laws have it.

    As for those who are ok with a refund, it is totally unfair to refund $500 and have them pay double or more to get it later or from a scalper for the same result.
  • adminadmin Posts: 169
    Hi Kijutsu, I understand your frustration. You have been a backer and supporter since day one. We feel terrible about this forced action. Our production capacity is large enough to produce our backlog, so this has nothing to do with us having a partner in China. The reality is that shipping and supporting a product like the Omni worldwide, for example in a country like Japan, is extremely hard for a small startup like ours. When we started this project, we expected that the Omni would fit in a nice box that we could ship all over the world. Now the Omni has evolved into a large and complex device in multiple boxes, with wireless communication protocols that require approvals, and more than 200 custom parts. Our dream of shipping this product to customers worldwide has proven naive and not realistic. Our US team has 15 people. It'd be a suicide mission. We wish it were different. This is not the outcome we desired and is terrible for all of us.
  • admin said:

    Hi Kijutsu, I understand your frustration. You have been a backer and supporter since day one. We feel terrible about this forced action. Our production capacity is large enough to produce our backlog, so this has nothing to do with us having a partner in China. The reality is that shipping and supporting a product like the Omni worldwide, for example in a country like Japan, is extremely hard for a small startup like ours. When we started this project, we expected that the Omni would fit in a nice box that we could ship all over the world. Now the Omni has evolved into a large and complex device in multiple boxes, with wireless communication protocols that require approvals, and more than 200 custom parts. Our dream of shipping this product to customers worldwide has proven naive and not realistic. Our US team has 15 people. It'd be a suicide mission. We wish it were different. This is not the outcome we desired and is terrible for all of us.

    I would stop apologizing. Nobody will be ok with anything you say at this point. We offer you a way out that would give you the chance to keep your face and us to use your product. Stop stonewalling and start talking to us!
  • Disreputable company pure and simple, they have made the decision not to honor the pre order price because they lose too much on them, ive found out that they will have international distributors in 2017 and the price will be siginificantly more, i presented at pax australia and know PLE computers will be selling in 2017 at a significantly larger price than pre order.

    Virtuix have simply made the financial decision to not honor pre-orders nor offer discount voucher for future delivery by a local distributor.

    As many pointed out we could arrange our own delivery easily from the US.

    Feature spread of the unit from Pax Melbourne is now being edited to convey whats been done, thank you for advising us now, i would have hated to release a good review of the company which is now a less that good review. Quote "It looks like international backers and future customers will be buying them on ebay, not a great start for this company."
  • mmoerdersmmoerders Posts: 6
    edited December 2016
    This goes out to all the backers from Germany:

    You are invited to join the Facebook group "Virtuix Omni Germany" to discuss and exchange ideas. I don't want to spam this topic with it.


    @ Virtuix Team:

    How long do you offer this refund program?
  • @Jan. No you don't understand my frustration. What has changed for you from this? You get a bit of bad rep in return for not selling Omnis at a lost. Sure is the same thing as the guy who's been championing you for years, who's friend told him countless time that you guys were full of BS(boy this is gonna be fun...) and who is ultimately being told to take 50$ and shut up, same thing indeed...

    Anyway, may the karma be with you,
    Riku

    3 years and a half, and 400$ for this... ffs
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,069
    @rickardo69 I do remember those early days on the forum, and how much work it was back then. There is something about a crowdfunding campaign, especially one that dares to do something so radically different, that makes you invest a lot personally - both in time, and emotion. But it has been rewarding, and I thank you for putting my name forward back then.

    @Kijutsu I'm genuinely depressed that many won't be getting their Omnis. First and foremost, I want there to be an Omni in every home, because I think a world that has access to better VR is a better world. Secondly, while I think there will be some great arcade content for the Omni, I don't want to miss out on the awesome content that would be developed for the home user. Believe me, anything I do to help Virtuix is with the intent of accelerating past these initial barriers and making the Omni affordable to all. With luck and hard work we will get there, and I hope you'll be proud of your involvement again one day.

    Everyone, these are very early days for VR. However exciting it is, there are serious limitations. Adoption rates are low, content is sparse, there are other missing pieces to the puzzle (e.g. haptics), and the headsets themselves still suffer from the limitations of being first-gen. VR is not yet the life-changing medium it can and will be. It may take two or three years to mature to the point where it's even close to its potential. By then, maybe Virtuix will be a bigger company, able to service customers internationally, or maybe there will be a network of distributors in place... I don't know. All we can do is try to push things forward. I would like this community to stick together - whether we accepted a refund or received an Omni. It's our shared vision and passion that matters here, without which the Omni is nothing. It's the people who use it that matter - today, tomorrow, or years from now. You all matter. If this were a company that only cared about commercial operators, there wouldn't be a forum. The team is listening, and saddened to be causing this pain.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • SlopeySlopey Posts: 24
    That's just it though - without having Omnis out in the wild, you can't build an infrastructure around them. Integration with games is pointless as there's no market for it with such a limited number of units in only a single territory. Arcade installations are fine, but that won't move over to mainstream unless consumers can actually buy the product, which Virtuix have shown that outside of the US, they're not interested in.

    I was very much anticipating the arrival of the Omni (at long last!), and my company has recently moved into VR training scenarios for large blue chip corporates in the UK and abroad which the Omni would be a perfect fit for. I've included information on it to several head honchos of very large companies in the UK with "any day now", but now I just look stupid. I can guarentee I won't be using, pitching or promoting the Omni in the future, either for personal or corporate products.

    You complain about adoption rates and content, but Virtuix denying non-US backers a unit are creating that situation themselves.
  • TomekTomek Posts: 76
    edited December 2016
    I hope they are reconsidering and looking to how they can ship without warranty. It must be really hard to have such a backlash in the first few hours and I feel sorry for them. Whatever the reason is, they must be shattered at the possibility of denying so many fans their product. . Please just let people have it shipped to them from China with a 6 month delay or wahtever or now without warranty. It would be really bad if backers are given a refund of $550 and forced to buy later at retail for $999. If you're worried about liability, that kind of situation is sure to be risky too.
  • I believe at the very least all us international kickstarter backers and other international investors ( not the ones who already have theirs.... go figure...) At the very least we should get the exact same price we got through the kickstarter, otherwise those of us who truly love vr and want this sort of experience would be royally screwed all because of a poorly considered decision by the company.
  • AdminoAdmino Posts: 38
    @sutekiB and @admin
    Stop apologizing and stop giving poor excuses. The trust that people place in Virtuix as a firm changes based on its actions and statements. The "excuses" given above are very disappointing, but only because they are so transparent. Virtuix hasn't attempted to make them even slightly plausible which amply demonstrates how little respect Virtuix has for non-US customers.

    If you want to prove me wrong, draw up a comprehensive list of ALL the problems faced by Virtuix in exporting the Omnis from the US and importing them into each region, and let us help you solve them in a profitable and feasible way for Virtuix. After all, the only thing backers are interested in is getting their hands on the product they backed.
  • edmgedmg Posts: 57
    edited December 2016
    I think fundamentally, the problem is that the price we paid is simply too low for the true cost of manufacturing, delivering and supporting the Omni in such a small market. I had previously wondered what the business case would be for selling one to me when i'm probably the only customer within a hundred miles, and had assumed I might eventually had to pick it up from another city to save shipping. But the time to have done something about that was when they raised the price a couple of months back, when I suspect most of us would have accepted ''sorry, guys, but now we know the real price, we just can't afford to deliver Omnis at the price you paid'. I'd thought at the time that they must have good backers if they could afford to ship so many at what would presumably be cost price or less.

    I completely get the business case, but by the way they've done this, I think they've destroyed staggering amounts of goodwill from customers who will now find alternative VR devices, buy an Omni off ebay for far more money and risk it not getting through customs (and still not getting support), or buy Chinese knock-offs and become advocates for them instead of Virtuix. It just has the makings of a giant merdier, if you'll excuse my French (remind me sometime to tell you about the company I worked for who did something similar--'but the contract says...'-- that just annoyed a customer so much that they became a competitor and put us out of business).

    BTW, don't credit card merchant agreements usually require you to refund to the card? Having to go through Paypal is a real pain.
  • adminadmin Posts: 169
    Hi EDMG, we'd love to just refund the credit card but our online e-commerce system does not save credit card info for longer than 90 days for security reasons. It is indeed not the cost of the actual delivery of the product that is a challenge, but the resources needed to support thousands of Omnis in countries all over the world - that has proven to be a naive intention just not realistic for a small company like ours with a staff of 15 people in the US. Anyone who has seen the size and complexity of the Omni would understand. It'd be a suicide mission, and we've come to accept this reality in the last few weeks. This is not what we intended, and we are very sorry. Needless to say this is a big setback for our team and our company.
  • AdminoAdmino Posts: 38
    edited December 2016
    @admin
    admin said:

    the resources needed to support thousands of Omnis in countries all over the world

    .
    I find it hard to believe this. With such a strict QA procedure as you've been implementing, the number of faulty devices that are shipped should be extremely low compared to the numbers you are shipping. What sort of "support" are you talking about? Do you expect the majority of your products to fall apart and stop working within half a year or a year? I personally would expect at least 1.5 to 2 (ideally 3-5) years' solid use out of an Omni before any problems begin to develop. After that time, I'd probably be considering upgrading to Omni 2 or similar device.
    admin said:

    not realistic for a small company like ours with a staff of 15 people in the US

    This might come across as a tad sarcastic, but have you considered hiring more people? It's ok to be cautious and not wanting to overstretch yourself, but since you're admitting that your company is already having to cut back due to lack of manpower, you should seriously consider removing that bottleneck.

    Is virtuix hoping to eventually ship its product internationally?

  • adminadmin Posts: 169
    Hi Admino, the Omni is a complex device that will need servicing at some point in the first year if used frequently. Our QA process prevents faulty devices to ship, but does not guarantee that all Omnis will keep functioning for 12 months. Maybe they may, but we just don't know. I appreciate your advice to hire more people, but our resources are limited. With all the money in the world, we would not even have this discussion. Money solves all problems. Unfortunately we are a resource-constraint startup. I wish it were different.
  • Hello! Jan and The Virtuix Team,

    I'm a one of the investors via seedinvest and I'm also one of the "FOREIGN" pre-order customers.

    I hope that you would answer my question.

    I'm worried about there are some other factors in your decision except your announcement above.
    Like, Some persons force you to restrict destinations of your products because of commercial interests for some specific persons.

    I'm not sure the true, But if it might be possible,
    I think these kind of strategies are not profitable for "potential" customers/developers, and the field of VR might fall down in the future, even if you have a clue technology for success in this field.
    In my opinion, there is a room to consider to supply your products as a investigate or purpose of research to "developers/early adopters" (LIKE ME!) .

    Thanks,

    Masahiro
  • adminadmin Posts: 169
    Hi Masahiro, thank you for reaching out. We currently have no restrictions on where we want to ship units, and our production capacity is large enough to produce our backlog and any additional units we need. The main challenge is that, for a small startup like us with a US staff of 15 people, we do not have the resources to ship and support units in countries all over the world. The Omni has become a large, complex, and expensive device. It'd be a suicide mission, and we've come to accept this reality in the last few weeks. This is not what we intended, and we are very sorry.
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 307
    edited December 2016
    So far I've seen some pretty ridiculous assertions in this thread: "It's as simple as slapping a label on a box and letting DHL pick it up" and "hail the chinese!" and even "Virtuix just loses some pocket change, they aren't really affected by this!" which are all incredibly naive. I can guarantee that it's this very same naivety that led to this problem in the first place.

    The biggest thing I've seen to come out of this thread is that it really does seem only fair to allow kickstarters/preorders to chose someone to gift their Omnis to. Many people have international friends/family that share interests in VR. If I were international, and hadn't gotten in on a pathfinder program, I would rather gift it to someone I know instead of getting refunded, perhaps even a developer I know that I was hoping to see implement Omni functionality to their games (hell, I'd gift it to Gabe Newell with a note to re-implement HL2 VR and I don't even know him personally, but it would definitely be for him to use and not just to ship to me) Perhaps those international kickstarters/preorders could nominate established US based VR development teams to shift/gift their order to? (I doubt anyone is actually feeling that altruistic though)

    I agree with @xxann5 and @mmoerders that keeping a list of backers and providing some sort of voucher for potential future purchase should be taken. If Virtuix isn't willing to commit to this, then I actually have to take a hard stance on this issue; If I paid for an Omni, and you're saying you wont give me an omni, then you need to give me the value of an omni back, the value of an omni was $500-$600 some 3+ years ago, but it's $1000 now, and some $50-$100 of interest just doesn't cover that change in price, even if it is more than I could have gotten from a savings account. The voucher wouldn't have to guarantee shipment, and it could be phrased as "If (named person) provides this voucher, then they will pay a minimum of (initial amount of their purchase) and save up to (current value minus initial purchase amount) on their order" that way they wont benefit from the price going up or down later. Either way, if something as basic as this can't be done, I wouldn't settle for a refund less than the current listed value of the Omni.
  • TomekTomek Posts: 76
    I'm curious, why not just delay shipments for international orders? Why force cancellations and refunds? If there's a concern about maintenance in 12 months time, surely, you'd have things sorted by then to accommodate increased numbers of such things. Or even just ship without warranty and offer spare parts like you would to US customers. Seems like there's many options other than the current offer on the table.
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