International Refund Program

1235714

Comments

  • tppptppp Posts: 5
    admin said:

    Hi Mrmat, you'll learn more about legal requirements for delivering products in the EU here: http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/client-guarantee-redress/index_en.htm
    We were well aware of these requirements and believed we could meet these. Only in the last few weeks have we started to admit the reality that we would not have enough resources to deliver and support the Omni all over the world. It's a vast undertaking for any company, let alone for a small startup like ours.

    So would it be possible for Kickstarter backers to accept same kind of conditions you had for the Pathfinder Program (you did get at least one to EU, right)? I would be happy to pay extra for shipping and accept that I am using a prototype that is not otherwise sold or supported here. I suppose many of the original backers are enthusiasts and (like myself) engineers that would love to create software for Omni. An NDA would not be a problem either. Isn't there anything we could arrange here? I mean, in the long term, you are going to need people that know how to make content for these kind of platforms. Here is an opportunity to start that process. I understand that the production costs have tripled from the original estimates, but there must be a price that would not be a loss for you. Can we pay that?
  • MrmatMrmat Posts: 3
    edited December 2016
    admin said:

    Hi Mrmat, you'll learn more about legal requirements for delivering products in the EU here: http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/client-guarantee-redress/index_en.htm
    We were well aware of these requirements and believed we could meet these. Only in the last few weeks have we started to admit the reality that we would not have enough resources to deliver and support the Omni all over the world. It's a vast undertaking for any company, let alone for a small startup like ours.

    There's nothing there about having to have replacement parts available in the same country, it says:


    If you are a retailer, your customers can ask for redress under the legal guarantee provided by EU law - if an item:

    doesn't match the product description
    has different qualities from the model advertised or shown to the client
    is not fit for purpose - either its standard purpose or a specific purpose ordered by the customer which you accepted
    doesn't show the quality and performance normal in products of the same type
    wasn't installed correctly - either by you, or by the customer, due to shortcomings in the instructions
    If you inform your customer that the product you are going to sell has quality problems, they cannot then claim redress from you about this particular defect.

    IF SO: Your customers have the right to ask you to do any of the following without any charge (for postage, labour, material, etc.):

    repair the product
    replace the product
    reduce the price
    cancel the contract and reimburse them in full (in some countries, the sales contract cannot be cancelled if the fault is minor, e.g. scratch on a CD case)


    So, you could, if you wanted to, honour the orders, and then refund them if they fail....

    Please state which requirement you would be unable to fulfill.
  • Best Jan,

    From day 1 until today, do not talk about a refund. It is unacceptable...

    Regards
    deiby3D
  • MarkHMarkH Posts: 11
    so Jan, I hear you and somewhat understand but also understand this. You valued my initial $800 investment in the shopping cart as $2600. So, refund me $2600 and you will never hear from me again.
    Either that, or tell me when my shopping cart order is complete and sitting on your dock) and I will personally pull up with a flatbed truck and take it away and you will never hear from me again. Its rather simple. All repairs and support is time and materials based.

    So it will cost you exactly $0 to support my 2 Omni units from now until the cows come home and I will deal with the shipping (I am able to move a $1.2 million fire truck made in the USA over the CDN boarder...its really less difficult to move 2 pallets of plastic and other components.

    How much simpler do you want me to make it for you? No cost for shipping, no effort for shipping and voila, no cost for future service and support parts or labor.

    Now, what is your answer?
  • SlopeySlopey Posts: 24
    This is getting silly now - mythical requirements in the EU about holding spare parts? Community manager posting "we're entitled to refund you any time we want" (since deleted). Virtuix - you're not going to come out of this smelling of roses, no matter what crap excuses you come up with. You should probably just keep quiet, and refund everyone as you're descending into farce with the last few postings.

    Anyway - I've got my refund now, and thankfully I'll never have to deal with you again.

    In niche markets, what goes around, comes around - so good luck with that.
  • admin said:

    Hi Mrmat, you'll learn more about legal requirements for delivering products in the EU here: http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/client-guarantee-redress/index_en.htm
    We were well aware of these requirements and believed we could meet these. Only in the last few weeks have we started to admit the reality that we would not have enough resources to deliver and support the Omni all over the world. It's a vast undertaking for any company, let alone for a small startup like ours.

    what bullshit is this? all that states is that you must
    a)accept returns within 2 weeks
    b) fix your product if it is faulty....

    so what is it legal to send a broken product in the us? and when the consumer complains the company says buy another?

    p.s. if you sent me an omni that did not work upon recept or within a short ammount of time broke(due to design fault), i would contact you, then i would send my broken one back and you would fix it or replace it with a working one...doesnt matter which country its fixed in...
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,061
    Hi @Slopey, this is very difficult for all of us, but we will try to make it through to the other side. No-one ever wants to alienate their own community, so you can imagine this was not an easy decision to make. We do our best to answer questions, but we know that won't be enough to soothe the wounds. Hopefully in time, you'll understand and forgive the reasoning that went into this course of action. International refunds hurt now, but if we're to one day have affordable active virtual reality for everyone, Virtuix needs to make it through these early days of the market, and not leave thousands of unserviced Omnis in regions it can't yet support. I apologise if this is not the rationale you want to hear at this moment, and I apologise again for my earlier wording. I hope that should the Omni become available in your area one day you'll consider it again, with no hard feelings.

    @50pence777 - yes I think there is no rule about accepting returns on faulty products in the U.S. or agreeing to refunds. There shouldn't be anything wrong with the units that are dispatched, but if there were a problem outside of the U.S., servicing costs would be very high without infrastructure in place. It's been looked at carefully, and this just isn't a feasible route for the company to take right now. Maybe one day in the future, but until then it wouldn't be right to continue holding on to people's money.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • TomekTomek Posts: 76
    You mention that you don't want to hold on to people's money.. But why not offer vouchers to buy again at the same price?
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,061
    Hi @Tomek, I will quote Jan's response on Kickstarter to that question:
    we contemplated and discussed the voucher option internally, but we concluded that at this time we no longer want to issue empty promises or empty vouchers to our customers given our poor track record in this regard. We currently do not know if, when, or how the Omni will ever be available to consumers internationally. We have to admit that the current version of the Omni no longer looks like a typical consumer product but more like a robust commercial device. Our long-term vision is still to have a VR setup with the Omni in every household. That is our mission. But it'll take us some more time, and a next-generation Omni, to get there. Holding on to backer's money until then or promising a voucher for such a future product does not seem fair or realistic.
    Our company's vision is to bring locomotion to VR, as we believe locomotion is crucial for VR to succeed. We regret that we need to take this step, but we see it as necessary for our company to survive and succeed in the long run. Our vision is intact, but it'll take us longer to get there than what we envisioned. We understand our backers are angry and frustrated. This is not a good situation for us, and we wish it were different.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • giroudfgiroudf Posts: 127
    edited December 2016
    but then you cannot refuse a delivery change to an US address.
    I share my time between Switzerland , Florida and Cuba, so I ordered for delivery in Switzerland, but I can get it as well in Florida.
    Were do we change the delivery address ?
  • sutekiB said:

    Hi @Slopey, this is very difficult for all of us, but we will try to make it through to the other side. No-one ever wants to alienate their own community, so you can imagine this was not an easy decision to make. We do our best to answer questions, but we know that won't be enough to soothe the wounds. Hopefully in time, you'll understand and forgive the reasoning that went into this course of action. International refunds hurt now, but if we're to one day have affordable active virtual reality for everyone, Virtuix needs to make it through these early days of the market, and not leave thousands of unserviced Omnis in regions it can't yet support. I apologise if this is not the rationale you want to hear at this moment, and I apologise again for my earlier wording. I hope that should the Omni become available in your area one day you'll consider it again, with no hard feelings.

    @50pence777 - yes I think there is no rule about accepting returns on faulty products in the U.S. or agreeing to refunds. There shouldn't be anything wrong with the units that are dispatched, but if there were a problem outside of the U.S., servicing costs would be very high without infrastructure in place. It's been looked at carefully, and this just isn't a feasible route for the company to take right now. Maybe one day in the future, but until then it wouldn't be right to continue holding on to people's money.

    I was being sarcastic, im pretty sure the article linked earlier is the same as the ones below, the rule is called a warranty

    http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/what-is-an-implied-warranty-.html

    http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/warranty-laws-and-the-magnuson-moss-warranty-act-.html

    https://www.oaciq.com/en/articles/the-legal-warranty-of-ownership-and-quality
  • sutekiB said:

    Hi @Slopey, this is very difficult for all of us, but we will try to make it through to the other side. No-one ever wants to alienate their own community, so you can imagine this was not an easy decision to make. We do our best to answer questions, but we know that won't be enough to soothe the wounds. Hopefully in time, you'll understand and forgive the reasoning that went into this course of action. International refunds hurt now, but if we're to one day have affordable active virtual reality for everyone, Virtuix needs to make it through these early days of the market, and not leave thousands of unserviced Omnis in regions it can't yet support. I apologise if this is not the rationale you want to hear at this moment, and I apologise again for my earlier wording. I hope that should the Omni become available in your area one day you'll consider it again, with no hard feelings.

    @50pence777 - yes I think there is no rule about accepting returns on faulty products in the U.S. or agreeing to refunds. There shouldn't be anything wrong with the units that are dispatched, but if there were a problem outside of the U.S., servicing costs would be very high without infrastructure in place. It's been looked at carefully, and this just isn't a feasible route for the company to take right now. Maybe one day in the future, but until then it wouldn't be right to continue holding on to people's money.

    from your faq; The Omni comes with a 1-year warranty for home consumer use, commencing from the date of receipt of the product. Commercial use of the product will void any warranty right. Note that you need to purchase the Omni through our website or from an authorized re-seller to maintain the warranty. Purchasing the Omni from an un-authorized re-seller will void any warranty rights.

  • tppptppp Posts: 5
    Hey @sutekiB @admin Any comment on my questions?
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 307
    edited December 2016
    The more I think about the refund, the more I'm convinced of my stance; anything less than the current listed Omni price is a ripoff. I don't think that Virtuix is actually TRYING to rip anyone off, but it's a ripoff regardless. If I purchased a gold bar listed at $1000 through a bank or some store that specialized in such purchases, and arranged for them to deliver it to my house for me with their assurance that they could accomidate delivery to my location, and then between the time I purchased it, and the time they were ready to ship it to me, the price of gold suddenly doubled, it would most likely be illegal, and most certainly be unethical for them to cancel my order and claim that they aren't shipping to my area, but might in the future, and I was welcome to have my money refunded. I purchased the gold, and I became the owner of that gold as soon as the store/bank accepted my funds, and if they wanted to own that gold, they would need to reimburse me the current list price of that gold, not simply what I paid for it before.
    Personally I think it would be far more in Virtuix's (and everyone's) best interest to either allow people to refuse the refund and retain the order in the system for if/when Virtuix finally establishes an international foothold, or for Virtuix to offer the voucher I've mentioned in my earlier posts, as it would allow Virtuix to hold onto the money now, when they are less established and financially stable, retain a potential customer, and then only take a financial hit in a future where Virtuix is financially stable enough to attempt to expand business into other countries.
    If Virtuix is only offering monetary reimbursement, then regardless of their intentions, the original amount paid, even with interest, is not enough.

    what bullshit is this? all that states is that you must
    a)accept returns within 2 weeks
    b) fix your product if it is faulty....

    so what is it legal to send a broken product in the us? and when the consumer complains the company says buy another?

    p.s. if you sent me an omni that did not work upon recept or within a short ammount of time broke(due to design fault), i would contact you, then i would send my broken one back and you would fix it or replace it with a working one...doesnt matter which country its fixed in...

    Isn't this exactly what the problem is? You just basically said that you would "simply" initiate something that would require Virtuix cover around $1000 of shipping costs to replace, or are you implying that you (and more importantly EU law) would be satisfied with Virtuix only providing the replacement part for free, but leaving you with the shipping charges both directions? Does the law also allow Virtuix to saddle you with all responsibilities of assessing the nature of the damage, specifically what part needs replaced, and also with installing that replacement part yourself?
    In the US it is considered standard business practice to provide warranties, but under specific circumstances (I believe) you could opt out of these. I don't believe that opting out of these is even optional to a consumer covered under EU law. Without having an actual EU-based distribution facility, there's no way it would be viable to offer support.
    Likewise, everyone going "Why is Virtuix blocking us from 'gifting' our omni to a friend so they can send it to us anyway?" is specifically screwing themselves over when it comes to Virtuix's legal culpability. If everyone in this thread legitimately acted like they just wanted someone else to have it instead, then it MIGHT be feasible for Virtuix to accommodate something, but I haven't seen a single person do anything of the sort. Everyone is so busy posturing about how they'll get their Omni, come hell or high water, that if Virtuix DID accommodate their requests, EU law would still look at that and go "Ultimately, the person paying for this is covered under EU law, because they paid for it from an EU bank account, and also because you had prior knowledge that the unit would ultimately be going to an EU address so you're still bound to provide all that support even though that EU citizen said it didn't matter to them" That's the thing about laws is they don't really CARE about the person they are "protecting." They're basically just tools for lawyers to use to extract money from anyone they apply to, and just because that law was made for your benefit doesn't mean you can make any guarantee to Virtuix that it won't apply.

  • AdminoAdmino Posts: 38
    edited December 2016
    @admin @sutekiB
    No one country has any requirement about "having to maintain parts or provide servicing in countries", and even if any country did, that requirement would apply to only that country and not any other.
    You don't need to provide spare parts. You just have to be able to repair items and pay for shipping if the item is faulty at shipping or if the item breaks down during the warranty period. Are you expecting that to happen multiple times with every freaking Omni!?!! How low quality are the materials and workmanship that have gone into it?

    You say the Omni will require servicing within a year? What servicing? There are no moving parts that could become loose or require adjustment.
    Why are you lying to all your international backers?
    If your initial cost projections for the Omni are too low and money is the problem, recalculate the costs and open negotiations with the international backers. You'll find that many of them would be willing to pay the extra for shipping and/or the Omni.


  • AdminoAdmino Posts: 38
    edited December 2016

    Personally I think it would be far more in Virtuix's (and everyone's) best interest to either allow people to refuse the refund and retain the order in the system for if/when Virtuix finally establishes an international foothold, or for Virtuix to offer the voucher I've mentioned in my earlier posts, as it would allow Virtuix to hold onto the money now, when they are less established and financially stable, retain a potential customer, and then only take a financial hit in a future where Virtuix is financially stable enough to attempt to expand business into other countries.
    If Virtuix is only offering monetary reimbursement, then regardless of their intentions, the original amount paid, even with interest, is not enough.

    This. Backers just want the Omni so they can enhance their VR experience. Virtuix wants to make money (which is ok because it's a business) but the pre-order and kickstarter prices will be a loss for them. Virtuix could mitigate that loss by asking the international backers to pay more and bring prices to more in line with current prices. Virtuix could also do as @GreyAcumen suggests above or they could combine both of these suggestions. The fact they aren't giving us an option makes me think that there are other reasons for this sudden betrayal and they are lying to their backers.
  • TomekTomek Posts: 76
    Admino said:

    Virtuix could mitigate that loss by asking the international backers to pay more and bring prices to more in line with current prices. Virtuix could also do as @GreyAcumen suggests above or they could combine both of these suggestions. The fact they aren't giving us an option makes me think that there are other reasons for this sudden betrayal and they are lying to their backers.

    This wouldn't work. There are thousands of backers and you only need one to complain about having to top up their payment for what was previously an agreed exchange. They must give vouchers with refunds or allow people to change their shipping address. I haven't seen a good reason for denying the voucher idea.
  • AdminoAdmino Posts: 38
    Tomek said:

    This wouldn't work. There are thousands of backers and you only need one to complain about having to top up their payment for what was previously an agreed exchange. They must give vouchers with refunds or allow people to change their shipping address. I haven't seen a good reason for denying the voucher idea.

    @Tomek That's just it. If a backer agreed to a top-up payment, they wouldn't have cause to complain. If they think they would have cause to complain, they shouldn't agree to the top-up payment in the first place. Right now, Virtuix is simply unilaterally breaking their agreements with all their international backers. Even though Virtuix and each backer have agreed to their respective exchanges, there is nothing wrong with changes being suggested or requested by either party. If all parties to an exchange agree to certain changes, those changes would become the new terms of the exchange.

    I haven't seen any good reasons yet from Virtuix for their stance in this matter at all. Knowing what the actual problems or their actual requirements are would help us work together to overcome them to the betterment of their business and our entertainment, but...
  • 47tou47tou Posts: 3
    47tou said:

    Hi Virtuix Omni Admin, we are sorry to hear it,
    I made an order since 2015 Jan and it is a mind strike to me and my friends when i see this announcement.
    It's hard to believe that your team decided to ship the product to US and not other country like Asia or Europe?
    Have you ever asked your backer, or purchaser to increase the shipping fees before the announcement?
    From my point of view, as well as the other supporters, since we purchased your product years ago or may be longer, what they aim for is to get the product ASAP.
    I wouldn't mind to increase the shipment fees to be honest.
    Also i live in Hong Kong, and the actual product may just be hundreds miles away from it, and now you saying No to us..

    I DON'T WANT THE FREAKING REFUND PROGRAM, I WANT THE VIRTUIX OMN THAT I ORDERED.



    This is what i saw on Kickstarter, i cannot believe you direct and answer your backer from China and just ignore others buyers from your web,
    Come on, i just asked the similar questions and where is ADMIN? Hello? You guys created a chaos with the worst excuse ever, customer services?
    Give me an address and where i can pick up the Virtuix Omni that i ordered? I need an answer without BS.
  • I think so too that we as backers should:

    1. Get the right to change our shipping address.
    2. Get the right to deny the refund but keep a voucher instead to receive the product we invested in once they figured everything out.

    Everything else is just super fishy.

    @ Virtuix Team:

    I would like to repeat my last question and ask again: How long do we have time to make our decision if we accept the refund? Is there a deadline? Please answer.
  • edmgedmg Posts: 57

    If I were international, and hadn't gotten in on a pathfinder program, I would rather gift it to someone I know instead of getting refunded, perhaps even a developer I know that I was hoping to see implement Omni functionality to their games

    And this is another reason why this while mess was a bad idea. Who's going spend the time to add Omni support to their games if the only market is Chinese arcades and a few thousand Americans? I was thinking of doing some indie development with mine, but that's not going to happen now, and I'd guess that any development that does happen will be games for the arcades.

    Anyway, I'm out: I sent in my refund details. If the Omni ever does come to Canada, maybe I'll still buy one, but, the way things are going, I'll probably have something else well before then.
  • 47tou said:

    47tou said:

    Hi Virtuix Omni Admin, we are sorry to hear it,
    I made an order since 2015 Jan and it is a mind strike to me and my friends when i see this announcement.
    It's hard to believe that your team decided to ship the product to US and not other country like Asia or Europe?
    Have you ever asked your backer, or purchaser to increase the shipping fees before the announcement?
    From my point of view, as well as the other supporters, since we purchased your product years ago or may be longer, what they aim for is to get the product ASAP.
    I wouldn't mind to increase the shipment fees to be honest.
    Also i live in Hong Kong, and the actual product may just be hundreds miles away from it, and now you saying No to us..

    I DON'T WANT THE FREAKING REFUND PROGRAM, I WANT THE VIRTUIX OMN THAT I ORDERED.



    This is what i saw on Kickstarter, i cannot believe you direct and answer your backer from China and just ignore others buyers from your web,
    Come on, i just asked the similar questions and where is ADMIN? Hello? You guys created a chaos with the worst excuse ever, customer services?
    Give me an address and where i can pick up the Virtuix Omni that i ordered? I need an answer without BS.
    No where do they say they are shipping it there. I read that as "They can sell you one, we cannot"
    I think "address your situation" means they will be buying it there.

    Where is Admin? I hope they are all out having a beer, I am sure they could use one about now.
    --------------------------------------
    Cheez\/\/iz
    Omni Backer #40!
    Rift Backer #2,770 (That was a good one!)
    Middle Tennessee
    --------------------------------------
  • @sutekiB

    The more I think about the refund, the more I'm convinced of my stance; anything less than the current listed Omni price is a ripoff. I don't think that Virtuix is actually TRYING to rip anyone off, but it's a ripoff regardless. If I purchased a gold bar listed at $1000 through a bank or some store that specialized in such purchases, and arranged for them to deliver it to my house for me with their assurance that they could accomidate delivery to my location, and then between the time I purchased it, and the time they were ready to ship it to me, the price of gold suddenly doubled, it would most likely be illegal, and most certainly be unethical for them to cancel my order and claim that they aren't shipping to my area, but might in the future, and I was welcome to have my money refunded. I purchased the gold, and I became the owner of that gold as soon as the store/bank accepted my funds, and if they wanted to own that gold, they would need to reimburse me the current list price of that gold, not simply what I paid for it before.
    Personally I think it would be far more in Virtuix's (and everyone's) best interest to either allow people to refuse the refund and retain the order in the system for if/when Virtuix finally establishes an international foothold, or for Virtuix to offer the voucher I've mentioned in my earlier posts, as it would allow Virtuix to hold onto the money now, when they are less established and financially stable, retain a potential customer, and then only take a financial hit in a future where Virtuix is financially stable enough to attempt to expand business into other countries.
    If Virtuix is only offering monetary reimbursement, then regardless of their intentions, the original amount paid, even with interest, is not enough.

    what bullshit is this? all that states is that you must
    a)accept returns within 2 weeks
    b) fix your product if it is faulty....

    so what is it legal to send a broken product in the us? and when the consumer complains the company says buy another?

    p.s. if you sent me an omni that did not work upon recept or within a short ammount of time broke(due to design fault), i would contact you, then i would send my broken one back and you would fix it or replace it with a working one...doesnt matter which country its fixed in...

    Isn't this exactly what the problem is? You just basically said that you would "simply" initiate something that would require Virtuix cover around $1000 of shipping costs to replace, or are you implying that you (and more importantly EU law) would be satisfied with Virtuix only providing the replacement part for free, but leaving you with the shipping charges both directions? Does the law also allow Virtuix to saddle you with all responsibilities of assessing the nature of the damage, specifically what part needs replaced, and also with installing that replacement part yourself?
    In the US it is considered standard business practice to provide warranties, but under specific circumstances (I believe) you could opt out of these. I don't believe that opting out of these is even optional to a consumer covered under EU law. Without having an actual EU-based distribution facility, there's no way it would be viable to offer support.
    Likewise, everyone going "Why is Virtuix blocking us from 'gifting' our omni to a friend so they can send it to us anyway?" is specifically screwing themselves over when it comes to Virtuix's legal culpability. If everyone in this thread legitimately acted like they just wanted someone else to have it instead, then it MIGHT be feasible for Virtuix to accommodate something, but I haven't seen a single person do anything of the sort. Everyone is so busy posturing about how they'll get their Omni, come hell or high water, that if Virtuix DID accommodate their requests, EU law would still look at that and go "Ultimately, the person paying for this is covered under EU law, because they paid for it from an EU bank account, and also because you had prior knowledge that the unit would ultimately be going to an EU address so you're still bound to provide all that support even though that EU citizen said it didn't matter to them" That's the thing about laws is they don't really CARE about the person they are "protecting." They're basically just tools for lawyers to use to extract money from anyone they apply to, and just because that law was made for your benefit doesn't mean you can make any guarantee to Virtuix that it won't apply.

    you are correct, virtuix would be responcible for shipping costs, and yes that could potentiolly be alot of money, but thats not new infomation, that was the case before the omni was even thought of, and it will always be the case, they should/would have known about this when creating the kickstarter, it has always been the price of international selling, you have to provide support in other countries = more cost, but in return you get a hell of alot more customers=more sales=more profit in the end, apperently 1/3 of the kickstarter backers alone were international buyers.

    the answer is to partner with someone, not kick their customers in the teeth, especially at this late stage, oculus did it with facebook, omni should do it with someone else, simply cancelling all international orders is a move that will bankrupt the company imo.
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 307
    edited December 2016
    CheezWiz said:

    47tou said:


    This is what i saw on Kickstarter, i cannot believe you direct and answer your backer from China and just ignore others buyers from your web,
    Come on, i just asked the similar questions and where is ADMIN? Hello? You guys created a chaos with the worst excuse ever, customer services?
    Give me an address and where i can pick up the Virtuix Omni that i ordered? I need an answer without BS.

    No where do they say they are shipping it there. I read that as "They can sell you one, we cannot"
    I think "address your situation" means they will be buying it there.

    Where is Admin? I hope they are all out having a beer, I am sure they could use one about now.
    I think Tou's focus had little to do with any erroneous idea that Jan had already shipped an Omni to Chen Kai, since it's obvious he had only sent him the contact info for Hero Entertainment, and has more to do with the fact that Jan rapidly replied to a prospective buy, but then seemed to skip right over Kai Chang Caine who was complaining. I don't really see the issue though; the one person was answered rapidly because his question had easily accessed information that fully addressed his problem, the other person wasn't answered because his question (which isn't really asking anything, just complaining) doesn't have a simple answer.

    Really though, when you actually read the complaint, what response can even be given to that other than the same copy paste apology that people are bitching about and getting more and more frustrated by? If they apologize, people will complain about empty apologies, if they say "we're exploring options" then you'll only be more upset if they come back later and go "nope, still no good" if they say no then... well they already said no and this is the result. The only answer people are going to shut up over is yes, and then they're back to being committed to delivering the unit that they may be unable to support properly. Everyone keeps going "don't care, want my omni" but they keep thinking that a defective unit is only going to happen to someone else, and I can already predict the rapid 180 people will be pulling from "It doesn't matter, I'll accept the risks" to "OMG, I can't believe I paid $500+ for what can only function as an art deco piece, Virtuix, you have to fix this!"

    you are correct, virtuix would be responcible for shipping costs, and yes that could potentiolly be alot of money, but thats not new infomation, that was the case before the omni was even thought of, and it will always be the case, they should/would have known about this when creating the kickstarter, it has always been the price of international selling, you have to provide support in other countries = more cost, but in return you get a hell of alot more customers=more sales=more profit in the end, apperently 1/3 of the kickstarter backers alone were international buyers.

    the answer is to partner with someone, not kick their customers in the teeth, especially at this late stage, oculus did it with facebook, omni should do it with someone else, simply cancelling all international orders is a move that will bankrupt the company imo.

    Knowing that, I can't disagree with Virtuix's backpedaling on fulfilling International orders. I can easily speculate that Virtuix based much of their finances on the idea that the need for continual support would be negligible. With the timing of the announcement (barely a month after receiving the first shipment to the US for testing) and it seems pretty obvious that Virtuix is looking at their statistics and seeing a much higher need for support, and thus demanding a higher international replacement and shipping cost for per unit than they had initially predicted. There's no denying that this is likely an issue with their own naivety at the start of this venture, but it's not going to do anyone any good to push for business support that could bankrupt the business and lose all support for everyone just because people were too inexperienced to understand the hurdles involved.

    The voucher system still seems like the preferable alternative. Production quality should only improve over time, and as Virtuix expands as a business and make contacts international support should be expected to be less restrictive.
  • admin said:

    Hi Mrmat, you'll learn more about legal requirements for delivering products in the EU here: http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/client-guarantee-redress/index_en.htm
    We were well aware of these requirements and believed we could meet these. Only in the last few weeks have we started to admit the reality that we would not have enough resources to deliver and support the Omni all over the world. It's a vast undertaking for any company, let alone for a small startup like ours.

    Come on now, you know that doesn't apply to Kickstarter backers: I could see that for taking preorders you could have that problem (still doesn't explain why you didn't factor this in months/years ago), but for Kickstarter backers the products are all technically "gifts" and the backers do not have consumer rights to them. You just can't afford to send out the product and didn't want to tell us until the last minute you had to.
  • giroudfgiroudf Posts: 127
    edited December 2016
    yep but there are tons of pre-orders too, and technically speaking a pre-order makes you a consumer.
    Legally speaking there are in a bad position denying some (foreing) customers, while delivering to others (US) , because the only reasons denying to deliver a pre-ordered product would be that the product does not exist.
    In that forum , they consistantly said, that tey can fulfill the requested amount of items, that shipment while difficult is not insurmountable (especially if done at customer's cost).
    The only reason they get is they "decide" to do it (based on belief, calculation or anything you want, but nothing concrete, at least that was showed here)
    Anyway that does not solve a question that has not be answered yet. Can we have the omni sent to a private US adress (not a box forwarder) ?

    interestingly, the virtuix shop sill active, only the price for the omni is removed.
    and the info for internatiobal shipping still active.
    So basically , it was ready BEFORE the announcement and prove they will ship (under condition) out of USA.
    • Australia: Please contact our local partner PLE Computers: https://www.ple.com.au/virtuixomni
    • Asia: Please contact our local partner Hero Entertainment at [email protected]

    a quicke check to PLE website shows this :
    "The Virtuix Omni is available exclusively to Commercial operators, there are no consumer sales of the Virtuix Omni worldwide - meaning this is an experience you can only have at a business like yours! "
    so the bullshit about shipment or warranty is real bullshit.
    Probably they sign exclusive agreement to distributor.
    It is a lot more difficult for europe since there is dozen of country, hence the total wipe of kickstartrs/pre-order for europe.

    you can also complain to better bureau
    https://www.bbb.org/consumer-complaints/file-a-complaint/get-started

  • That is exactly what i think! Thank you @giroudf to share this info with us.
  • gmcnortongmcnorton Posts: 3
    edited December 2016
    The fact is, Virtuix conned an awful lot of people into funding their product. Is it coincidence that at least 2 large buyers announced on twitter on the 5th that they had secured a large number of orders of Virtuix Omnis? There is no defence, this is an utterly despicable way to treat people. And to try to hide behind all these made up excuses is pathetic. Jan, you should be ashamed of yourself. Sorry if I've repeated things that have already been said, I didn't read the whole thread.

    PS Where's my money? It took you all of 5 seconds to take the money out of my account. Oh right, you're waiting for the cheques to clear from the likes of TheVRKing and Hero Entertainment...
  • EU is a single market: once products enter they can move freely. As mentioned above I think it's only fair to provide a voucher to be able to purchase a future Omni at the current price, if it will be marketed outside the US. What's the difficulty in that? Virtuix won't have to promise or commit that they'll eventually ship globally, just in case they do we can then use our voucher as reward for early supporting.
  • giroudfgiroudf Posts: 127
    edited December 2016
    yep but there are tons of pre-orders too, and technically speaking a pre-order makes you a consumer.
    Legally speaking there are in a bad position denying some (foreing) customers, while delivering to others (US) , because the only reasons denying to deliver a pre-ordered product would be that the product does not exist.
    In that forum , they consistantly said, that tey can fulfill the requested amount of items, that shipment while difficult is not insurmountable (especially if done at customer's cost).
    The only reason they get is they "decide" to do it (based on belief, calculation or anything you want, but nothing concrete, at least that was showed here)
    Anyway that does not solve a question that has not be answered yet. Can we have the omni sent to a private US adress (not a box forwarder) ?

    interestingly, the virtuix shop sill active, only the price for the omni is removed.
    and the info for internatiobal shipping still active.
    So basically , it was ready BEFORE the announcement and prove they will ship (under condition) out of USA.
    • Australia: Please contact our local partner PLE Computers: https://www.ple.com.au/virtuixomni
    • Asia: Please contact our local partner Hero Entertainment at [email protected]

    a quicke check to PLE website shows this :
    "The Virtuix Omni is available exclusively to Commercial operators, there are no consumer sales of the Virtuix Omni worldwide - meaning this is an experience you can only have at a business like yours! "
    so the bullshit about shipment or warranty is real bullshit.
    Probably they sign exclusive agreement to distributor.
    It is a lot more difficult for europe since there is dozen of country, hence the total wipe of kickstartrs/pre-order for europe.

    So what this means.
    Virtuix is breaking any contract/promise/faith with the kickstarter and even with customer (pre-order)
    Since there is probably big money behind , you have very little chance to reverse the decision unless you take action legally. (through kickstarter for example)
    Force getting an Omni would probalby not be an good idea either, since effectively the device become de facto an arcade device, so there are chances that
    game developmment, drivers availability, updates could be non-existent or locked.
    If there is a further development of the device for consumer, the risk is also big that the original device would be rapidly obsolete, or the consumer device
    would be better.
    In regards to all of this, it is pretty sure that geting refund is a good option, while it is available.
    I would also reject a voucher, since you do not know the futur of this company (at least for us, consumer) , so you would end up again with empty promise if we based only on our previous experience.
    I Mean somebody with this kind of behavior will still look for minimizing is exposure to futur responsibility (support ? warranty ? class action ?), so the best way in this case is to close company and rebirth it to a new one.
    In poor business this is a common practice.
    And finally, doing business with people with this kind of morality is always at your risks, so better to get out.
    My opinion is currently the worst situation is not to get a refund, but to get an omni delivered with no clue about that fact you could use it.

    you can also complain to better bureau and especially kickstarter make them uderstand the damage of such behavior to their own business.
    https://www.bbb.org/consumer-complaints/file-a-complaint/get-started

Sign In or Register to comment.