Keyboard emulation - programmable thresholds?

So I'm trying to use the Omni in keyboard mode and I want it to be able to input both walk ( W ) and run ( Shift + w ) depending on my walking speed. Right now, this isn't quite working.

Maybe I'm missing something, but when I go into Advanced settings and check the "Stream" section, I can see the current input as well as a set of keyboard keys.

What I CAN'T seem to find is a way to set an input threshold that triggers a SHIFT key hold when I'm moving above a certain speed. Without that, I don't see a way to trigger "run" in games that otherwise only have keyboard support. I really do feel like I'm missing something that should be obvious.

Comments

  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,049
    edited February 11
    Hi @Veraxus, this option is not available. To run in legacy games, you will need to map the sprint key to a controller button - most likely by using a third party application such as xpadder. You may then toggle/activate sprint with the controller while performing that action on the Omni. That's how I do it.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • VeraxusVeraxus Posts: 36
    Is there any plan to add this? Custom bindings seem like a fairly basic feature, and one I expected to be there right at the beginning given previous updates and claims about the software. Right now there are no custom mappings at all, let alone speed thresholds that allow for alternate bindings ( e.g. shift + w vs just w ).
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,049
    As Jan has mentioned elsewhere, we had some difficulty getting this feature to work reliably across games. While it is a good idea in theory, in practice we found it better to toggle or activate sprint with a button press and then physically run on the Omni. Getting legacy games set up to work in VR is challenging enough, I'm not sure users would also want to have to spend a lot of time calibrating the sprint threshold. Most likely they would jump straight into the game and start experiencing problems resulting from an incorrect threshold - for instance, unintentionally activating sticky-keys, going slower instead of faster because the game starts you off running by default, etc. In my opinion, it was the correct decision to leave it out.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • MarkVMarkV Posts: 30
    I think I'd prefer the option to try it and decide whether or not to use it. If it doesn't work well, so be it - we disable it. The downside is the support whining. (darned if you do, darned if you don't)
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 308
    @sutekiB - If I have to manually press a key for the game to recognize when I'm running, I might as well just skip using the Omni, and use a gamepad while I pretend to be walking in the first place. I'm not sure whether I'm more frustrated with the lack of a solution, or more frustrated with the idea that manually pressing a key is actually being proposed as an acceptable alternative. It's downright insulting.

    I'm with @MarkV on this. Yes, it might not work reliably, but if you at least put SOME sort of support for it in place, then maybe you can actually get some feedback on that issue. Sure, a lot of it might be useless bitching, but I'd rather slog through some useless bitching with the chance of finding a gem of useful fan patching or customized settings, than to listen to useless excuses about how hard it is to get an incredibly basic feature to work with no chance of anything useful at all. If Steam can allow users to create a custom threshold on the tilt of an analog stick for recognizing when a key is activated, then Virtuix should be able to manage the same thing on the Omni.
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,049
    @GreyAcumen I think a majority of people would not bother to read up on threshold calibration and would just jump into the game. They would then probably have a bad experience. Would they blame themselves for not taking the time to study the manual, do research online and test various settings, or would they blame the hardware? First experiences count a great deal, and I don't think it's worth potentially tarnishing a lot of people's first experience of the Omni for what is still only a binary speed choice. Even for pro users like myself, I like the fact I can walk at whatever speed I want on the Omni, run at any speed I want, and just use a button to switch between the desired outcomes. If I wanted to physically 'run a bit slower this time' or physically 'walk a bit faster' I would have to adjust the threshold each time - and many times you're not even conscious that you've changed your stride tempo. That would be a major hassle.

    It's a great idea in theory and I understand why people might want it, but in practice it does not compare to a game that uses the SDK, or even switching speeds with a button press. As for 'skipping the Omni and just using a gamepad', I definitely would not do that! I would much prefer to use the Omni with legacy games and continue to trigger movement with my actual steps (forward backward and strafing), than go back to a gamepad. There are different grades of experience you can have with the Omni, for sure - but even the least of them is superior to any other form of locomotion input in VR.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • XainXain Posts: 122
    @GreyAcumen Your post sounds like you are misunderstanding something? If the game has no controller support and only keyboard support then you would have to hit a button to toggle between run speed and walk speed but still would be walking in the omni to move around. Saying you might as well use a gamepad and walk in place makes it sound like you think you are pressing a button to run and then pretending to walk with the omni but in truth its not doing anything.

    @sutekiB Honestly it isn't your job to think what a user should or might do. We are all of us here enthusiasts, to say that we wouldn't take the time to properly get something to work that we spent a large ammount of money on is insulting. Honestly it sounds to me like the guys in charge or programming the emulation suck and gave up trying to make it work.
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,049
    I never said that enthusiasts wouldn't be willing to experiment with a wide range of settings. By majority of people I referred to the casual consumer.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • XainXain Posts: 122
    edited February 13
    What casual consumer? The Omni isn't even available to consumers anymore. VR at the moment requires a high end gaming pc where you are looking to spend around 1-1.5k minimum. Then for a headset and motion controllers you are looking at 800 or more depending on which headset you choose. FINALLY we have the price of the Omni, which is now what, 1000$? Thats a 3k entry point, EVERYONE here is an enthusiast experiencing generation 1 VR. And seeing as how we are all enthusiasts and the Omni probably won't catch on in the consumer market for years to come why not add the feature out now and have all of us test it and give feedback?

    -edit-
    Just saw this in another post.
    Admin said:


    Veraxus, thank you for the feedback. In fact, we had the "shift hold" function in the past, but it's hard to make it work well across games. We decided to leave it out at this time.
    Best regards,
    Jan

    Well then.. Glad to see the choice was taken away from us.

  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 308
    edited February 13
    @Xain - I'm not misunderstanding anything at all. I'm expressing how utterly stupid it is to be told that instead of telling the difference between walking and running, you have to manually hold a button every time you run so that you can pretend like the Omni is working the way it's actually supposed to work. I am taking the pointlessness of that to the next logical step and comparing it to just walking around on a disconnected Omni and using a gamepad to control your motion in the game and pretending that the Omni is acting as a functional input. After that, I can just take a "let's play" video off of youtube and just practice making all the same choices that the guy in the video makes and pretend I'm actually playing the game.
    sutekiB said:

    I never said that enthusiasts wouldn't be willing to experiment with a wide range of settings. By majority of people I referred to the casual consumer.

    Well, congratulations, you just tipped my scale from frustrated right firmly into insulted. The depth to which you inserted your foot into your own mouth is downright staggering. I realize that the last 3 months are a dark time for Virtuix, and you'd like to forget that the company you are representing has chosen to drop consumer sales and focus on Arcades only.... well, I digress. Xain so perfectly took the words out of my mouth that all I can do is just quote his entire response here. For visual effect, imagine the two of us both hearing your comment, and literally reciting this entire speech in synced stereo, like an angry Simon and Garfunkle remix.
    Xain said:

    What casual consumer? The Omni isn't even available to consumers anymore. VR at the moment requires a high end gaming pc where you are looking to spend around 1-1.5k minimum. Then for a headset and motion controllers you are looking at 800 or more depending on which headset you choose. FINALLY we have the price of the Omni, which is now what, 1000$? Thats a 3k entry point, EVERYONE here is an enthusiast experiencing generation 1 VR. And seeing as how we are all enthusiasts and the Omni probably won't catch on in the consumer market for years to come why not add the feature out now and have all of us test it and give feedback?

    -edit-
    Just saw this in another post.

    Admin said:


    Veraxus, thank you for the feedback. In fact, we had the "shift hold" function in the past, but it's hard to make it work well across games. We decided to leave it out at this time.
    Best regards,
    Jan

    Well then.. Glad to see the choice was taken away from us.

  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,049
    Xain said:

    What casual consumer? The Omni isn't even available to consumers anymore... And seeing as how we are all enthusiasts and the Omni probably won't catch on in the consumer market for years to come why not add the feature out now and have all of us test it and give feedback?

    The plan was and still is for the Omni to be a consumer device. As a consumer device, one would expect to see much more content made for the home user - that would be of more benefit to the enthusiast in the long term than an extra option to tinker with that may negatively impact reviews of the product. Even with this delay however, I'm not sure we'll see this feature added anytime soon. There's no guarantee it can be made to work effectively across a wide range of legacy games, and it may be wiser to direct efforts towards getting native content made for the Omni.

    I realize that the last 3 months are a dark time for Virtuix, and you'd like to forget that the company you are representing has chosen to drop consumer sales and focus on Arcades only....

    The decision to drop Shift+W was made recently, which is why you'll still find it on page 54 of the product manual. At that time, the decision to suspend consumer sales had not been made. If anything, this should provide reassurance that the team did everything they could to honour the pre-orders and international pledges. If there had been a long term plan to only support commercial users (who don't use legacy games), then either Shift+W would have been removed much sooner (and therefore not made it into the manual) or it would have been left in for dedicated enthusiasts like yourselves to experiment with.

    I'm sorry, I know it's frustrating. If I hadn't got to try it myself, I would have loved to test it out as well.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • XainXain Posts: 122
    >.O

    As my father used to say, 'I'm not angry at you SutekiB, just disapointed.' plans change, stuff happens but to go one speed like Virtuix has been without even entertaining the notion of discussing things with the community hurts. One could simply have this feature as an optional download available only on the forums or to people who request it with the disclaimer that its buggy. We keep seeing this perfect world excuse of games everywhere natively supporting the Omni when as of right now that route is so far away I can't even see it as a possibility. I literally bought into the Omni with the expectation of using it with its emulation feature as I seriously doubted its ability to catch on and be programmed into even a quarter of the games on the market which has only been further cemented by the choices Virtuix 'has had to make'
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 308
    sutekiB said:

    The decision to drop Shift+W was made recently, which is why you'll still find it on page 54 of the product manual. At that time, the decision to suspend consumer sales had not been made. If anything, this should provide reassurance that the team did everything they could to honour the pre-orders and international pledges. If there had been a long term plan to only support commercial users (who don't use legacy games), then either Shift+W would have been removed much sooner (and therefore not made it into the manual) or it would have been left in for dedicated enthusiasts like yourselves to experiment with.

    See... here's the thing; I don't care WHEN Virtuix made the decision. Other people may be treating this as a conspiracy, but I'm well aware of how plans can get battered down by reality. MY issue is that the decision to remove it, regardless of whether it was removed just yesterday or two years ago, is STILL a big giant fuching middle finger to ALL of the specific people who gave Virtuix the leg up in the first place; the enthusiasts. Dropping international is one thing; there are issues that just make it infeasible, though I'd be pissed as hell if it was me, I'd still recognize the mitigating factors. The need to ALSO focus on Arcades? That's fine too, but this is like you cooked a turkey that we all paid for, along with all the equipment you needed to cook it, because you told us you had an awesome recipe, and we waited at the dining room table for 3 whole days for it to finish cooking, and then it turns out it had a third drumstick, (holy snap! not just two, but three?!) which you then specifically cut off and threw in the trash because it was a little smaller than the others and you think it looks better without.
    Excuse me? If it's not working perfectly, disable it as a default, but LEAVE THE OPTION IN PLACE. You can cut off the drumstick, but don't throw it away when there not only might be, but definitely ARE, people who want to eat it.
    and I AM angry about that.
  • MarkVMarkV Posts: 30
    I'm all for some righteous indignation, but let's not take it out on SutekiB. He's here in the forums and I'd hate for him to stop working with us. I think as consumers and enthusiasts, given the limited number of games that use the SDK today, we're going to have to work together to figure out what is worth playing with the Omni and how to play it.

    Btw, is Virtuix working on OpenVR support for the Omni? I'm not even sure if it can tie into it, nor whether integration with OpenVR means all OpenVR games would be able to work with the Omni, but it seems (from a naive outsider) like a potential bandwagon that should be jumped on.
  • GreyAcumenGreyAcumen Posts: 308
    Anything I'm saying to @SutekiB in regards to my reactions and disposition towards Virtuix is purely to pass along the sentiment to everyone involved in running Virtuix as a whole. He's community manager, so dealing with vitriolic negative backlash from community members is at least one of his various responsibilities, and I'm not going to pull punches on that aspect just because he's personally an okay chap.
  • VeraxusVeraxus Posts: 36
    edited February 14
    I understand that it's ideal to use the SDK, but that's not a realistic expectation in most cases... not unless you are actively courting developers and offering subsidies for incorporating it (if you are doing this, please chat with the Obduction, Solus Project, and Serious Sam teams!).

    Looking at the Advanced panel, the "Gamepad" field shows how the input bounces with the speed of your steps, so I have a bit of an idea what your arguments are... and that's why I called out an easily adjustable threshold setting. In a perfect world, the Connect software would support profiles for different games... but barring that (a bigger ask), allowing us to adjust one or more "w / shift+w" threshold(s) ourselves when/as needed should solve the vast majority of use cases.

    So if the dynamic nature of input is the problem, then you can implement two thresholds - and both require sustained input to cross. One threshold to trigger high speed, and another threshold to trigger exit from high speed. The trigger only occurs when the threshold is passed for X continuous samples (where X may also be a configurable metric for each threshold).
  • DanteMDanteM Posts: 209
    edited February 21
    sutekiB said:

    @GreyAcumen I think a majority of people would not bother to read up on threshold calibration and would just jump into the game. They would then probably have a bad experience. Would they blame themselves for not taking the time to study the manual, do research online and test various settings, or would they blame the hardware? First experiences count a great deal, and I don't think it's worth potentially tarnishing a lot of people's first experience of the Omni for what is still only a binary speed choice. Even for pro users like myself, I like the fact I can walk at whatever speed I want on the Omni, run at any speed I want, and just use a button to switch between the desired outcomes. If I wanted to physically 'run a bit slower this time' or physically 'walk a bit faster' I would have to adjust the threshold each time - and many times you're not even conscious that you've changed your stride tempo. That would be a major hassle.

    It's a great idea in theory and I understand why people might want it, but in practice it does not compare to a game that uses the SDK, or even switching speeds with a button press. As for 'skipping the Omni and just using a gamepad', I definitely would not do that! I would much prefer to use the Omni with legacy games and continue to trigger movement with my actual steps (forward backward and strafing), than go back to a gamepad. There are different grades of experience you can have with the Omni, for sure - but even the least of them is superior to any other form of locomotion input in VR.

    This is the most backward down right idiotic statement I've read all week... nothing about that is a good idea or even remotely a good idea. If you make a product and someone has a bad experience then realize they didn't calibrate it they are normally smart enough to realize they are just a techno peasant and need to use common sense to setup their device. You had to calibrate your VR headset before using it or it wouldn't work right, same should be for most interactive peripherals. Look at VoiceAttack you have to run like fricken SIX calibrations before that thing works right then it becomes amazing. The ENTIRE idea of the omni is to eliminate the need to push ANY buttons to walk, run, strafe, jump (it does still support jump right, you guys didnt take that out too and royally bone everyone did you?) You know as well as us that having to push a button is a cop out to actually providing the solution lol. Again you talk about games "using the SDK" you also must know that is going to be VERY VERY few games as only a small handful of dev's will even deal with VIrtuix sadly after the international incident and even less due to the decision to move away from a majority of the customer base the game will profit off of and go arcade/business only.

    just in case someone says it never support jump. I've been hearing this isn't a function anymore and the thought of having the ball dropped on ANOTHER item the Omni is suppose to do is really frustrating haha.


  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,049
    @DanteM You can set a vertical threshold in VorpX, which once crossed will trigger a jump. You can do the same to initiate a crouch. Works great! I would however advise against physically jumping; you would need to remove the Harness support locks, and I find that movement is more comfortable with them on. Also, as this may put more strain on the Ring there's a chance it may reduce the lifespan of the device - not a risk I'm willing to take with mine!

    I'm afraid we just have to accept there are certain limitations intrinsic to legacy games. Still, we should embrace them for what they are - fun experiences that can make a case for full locomotion games being brought to VR by AAA studios.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • XainXain Posts: 122
    @DanteM Yeah.. I've also heard about jumping being dropped which has honestly confused the **** out of me, can we get some clarity on this @admin or @sutekiB ?
    What all does the Omni support now? Running, jumping, ect. What all can it emulate? Because honestly you're going to get sued for false advertising at this rate as when we all first purchased this device we were told it would be able to emulate a game pad effortlessly and that you could run, jump, strafe and crouch. Please be clear if any of this has changed and tell us WHY if it has. The only reason I can think you would take jumping out is because if you're one of those people prone to swallowing their own tongue you might break your damn leg jumping in the omni.
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,049
    Hi @Xain The Omni does support strafing and walking through keyboard emulation, and if a game supports direct input gamepads it can allow to you to accelerate (jog, run) through gamepad emulation. Unfortunately, very few games actually support direct input gamepads, as this has been all but replaced by xinput (i.e. Xbox gamepad input). You can convert one to the other with third party software, but this is not effortless. You can crouch or jump using a button press, or you can configure these to be triggered by the headset as I said in my post above.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • XainXain Posts: 122
    So @sutekiB you are telling me that they not only took out the emulation of running faster to toggle shift-w but crouching and jumping as well?
    Give me a second, I have to take a calming breath...
    ..
    ...
    .....
    .......
    Right. So lets start with this question: The Omni originally had this emulation, correct? Hell we can even see this working in previous videos. Was this taken out because of design changes to the Omni? I seem to remember the Omni had grooves in the base and like a matching ball on the shoe that stablized your foot as you ran and stuff. The current Omni looks to be a completely smooth surface and the shoes I take it are pretty smooth as well? Perhaps jumping was taken out with this version because it was deemed unsafe? However I am still confused about the crouch functionality.

    To be completely honest strafing is stupid in games, who walks like that? Jumping is also impractical and uneeded in fps's and I suppose the same argument could be made about crouching, not really needed. But all of that aside WHY IN THE EMPEROR'S NAME WOULD YOU HAVE IT WORKING AND THEN TAKE IT OUT? Just.. give me the older version that still had it. I do not care what you say, think, suggest in terms of it being impractical, buggy, hard to get working. Hire some programmers or hell, @Veraxus said he would work on it for you. Get to work on emulation drivers if you really want your product to succeed in the consumer market, or do you all no longer care and plan to only debut in arcades?

    You know, I used to play WoW. Started playing it.. wow like 13 years ago? It was my first mmorpg, I played a Marksman Hunter. The world was really amazing, I played the rts games beforehand and read the books so I was hooked. There was something you could do as a Marksman hunter, its called kiting. You simply run forward, away from a target that is chasing you; then you jump and do a 360, however here is the tricky part. In the middle of your 360, at around the 180 mark you press one of your skills to shoot off an arrow, one of few you could do while in motion. I really wanted to try this in VR, I was going to practice it everyday untill I got it down just right. So thanks, you know for taking something I was looking forward to and taking it away.
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,049
    Hi @Xain, as the camera is controlled by you head movement (with a 6 DOF headset like the Vive or Rift), were you to jump or bend over on the Omni you would perceive a corresponding change in elevation. If you are talking about initiating a character jump or crouch - in which the camera height changes independently of your head, then no this cannot be done just with the Omni's integrated tracking. However, this type of 'platforming' gameplay is not really suited to VR, as it's generally accepted that you shouldn't take camera control away from the player, and movements should be as 1:1 as possible, though I think there are a lot of exceptions that can be made depending on the implementation. The Omni is really effective at letting you move comfortably through environments, but bunny-hopping in legacy games with canned jumping animations probably would not be a comfortable experience. Legacy games do have limitations, but if you work around them they can still be a lot of fun.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • DanteMDanteM Posts: 209
    edited February 21
    sutekiB said:

    @DanteM You can set a vertical threshold in VorpX, which once crossed will trigger a jump. You can do the same to initiate a crouch. Works great!

    Got any video guides about either of these setups for us Omni fans so that we don't have to dig around ourselves since the omni was suppose to support these natively.

    I suppose I'll have to set these up in VorpX for jump to be a 1 inch hop (which shouldn't hurt anything on the Omni unless it's poorly built and flimsy which I assume it's not?) and crouch is easy enough to lean forward and down a little and be still comfortable + immersive. I REALLY wish Virtuix hadn't dropped the ball entirely and had incorporated that into your own software rather than assuming everyone will be buying VorpX to make their Omni work as it was intended and advertised.

    Side question... what's the average time from payment to when the omni ships? I know it says 1-3 weeks but surely at this point there is an established or general average time.
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,049
    @DanteM I do mention it on page 3 of my advanced CSGO guide. Here is the relevant extract:
    NOTE: With positional tracking enabled, you will be able to lean side-to-side, crane upwards and sink down while having these movements reflected in game. If you calibrate Jump Pos Threshold and Crouch Pos Threshold in VorpX you will be able to activate crouching and jumping without having to press a button. As jumping requires that you remove the support locks, we recommend that you only calibrate crouching, and continue to activate jumping with a button press. This will also exert less wear and tear on the Ring and Harness, extending their lifespan. To calibrate jumping and crouching, you simply adjust the values up or down to trigger the associated button press at a different height. This can be done in real-time - with the VorpX menu open.

    I'm sorry I don't know how long it takes to arrive after you've paid for shipping.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
  • DanteMDanteM Posts: 209
    sutekiB said:

    you will be able to lean side-to-side,

    Is there an option to set the position for lean function in VorpX for in games too America's Army Proving Grounds and such that support Q and E left and right lean functions???? That would be DOPE as F***!
  • sutekiBsutekiB Posts: 1,049
    @DanteM, I don't think so. By lean I simply meant that with positional head tracking enabled you can move your head from side to side and your view will follow. Also, I recall that if you do lean, crouch, or otherwise move your head away from the centre, it offsets your aim. In other words, your shots won't land where the cross-hair indicates, which is a pity. It does enhance immersion though.
    Community Manager at Virtuix
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